Words of Christ vs Words of God

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....Fine - then "Show" how the edits given do NOT fit the statement you made as follows

I read over what you posted carefully three times. You did not give me one definition asked for but you want me to "Show" how the edits given do NOT fit my statement.

You give me what you believe are the definitions and I will defend my statement accordingly. Can we do one at a time to keep it more focused.

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7


Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

(BobRyan)..Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

"How much fruit counts" I asked. Example; I see a person giving a cup of cold water to another, kindness is a fruit of the Spirit. Should the act of kindness in and of itself cause me to believe that this person is a child of God? "Fruit" alone isn't enough is it? Catholics believe that good works can only be done through man by the Holy Spirit and therefore anyone with good works is a sign that they are saved even apart from faith in Christ.

And what if it is a professing Christian that is bearing fruits of the Spirit that I can see and I have seen them do many wonderful works in the Lord's name, yet I also have seen them do a couple bad works not worthy of a Christian to partake in, are they still considered a Christian? Or must they have 100% good fruits and 0% bad?

You tell me Bob what your definition of "you shall know them by their fruits" is. Good fruit ALL the time, most of the time, some of the time? Can there be good fruits along with bad fruits, is there a scale that we should judge the fruits by? Just what would you say is the way we should look upon this word by Jesus?

If you do not answer any of this at least answer this one question for me, Does a good fruit tree, I am talking about a real tree here, bear 100% good fruit? Or is there always a certain percentage of rotten fruit or fruit that just doesn't fully develope coming off of a otherwise good tree?

So UNLESS you do define bearing fruit as 100% perfection, my statement....

"I believe that we (I am refering to Christians in this post) can choose to rebel and disobey God's Word. I believe that this does not make us any less a Christian nor any less saved by the blood of Christ."

...is in no way

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

You claim the edits do NOT fit your view - but here in the post I SHOW that they in fact DO fit your comments perfectly!!

Fine - then "Show" how the edits given do NOT fit the statement you made as follows

Steaver said "I believe that we (I am refering to Christians in this post) can choose to rebel and disobey God's Word. I believe that this does not make us any less a Christian nor any less saved by the blood of Christ."



(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7


Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.


Bob edits -- "
"Not merely everyone who DOES the will of My FAther but anyone who merely SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven "??? Matt 7

Steaver said "You will have to define "the will of the Father". Believe on Jesus, go to church, do unto others as ye would they do unto you, love one another, love God, do not eat pork, help elderly ladies cross the street, be perfect even as Christ is perfect?"

Or as Christ said "Hears My Words but does not DO them" but as MY EDIT and YOUR QUOTE point out - this just is not possible. Christ said wayyyy toooo many things and people just don't follow them all the time so no way to use that as any kind of criteria as opposed to "everyone who SAYS Lord Lord".

Bob edits""The one who SAYS He knows Christ and does NOT walk as Christ walked is TELLING the truth anyway" 1 John 2:4-6


Steaver said "You will have to define "walking as Christ walked". Christ walked in perfect submission to the Father. Are you walking as Christ walked?"

Precisely sir! that is exactly the point of my edit. We have no business talking about those who SAY they know Christ and then observing that they do or DO NOT WALK as Christ walked -- thus concluding that they (or even WE) have lied about knowing Christ. The EDIT above is the only way to accept it and keep your point in tact.

Bob edits -- "I FORGAVE you -- you should have forgiven your fellow servant in reality JUST as I forgave you in reality - but you did NOT do that-- so HAVE no worries be happy because all is well anyway"? Matt 18

Bob edits -- "IF we deny Him HE will claim us ANYWAY" 2Tim 2:10-12

Steaver said "You will have to define "deny". Deny Christ with the heart (like false converts), deny Christ in word (like Peter) ?

Excellent illustration proving that the EDIT HOLDS true!


Bob Edits Romans 2 "For it is BOTH the HEARERS only AND the DOERS of the Law that WILL be justified for in truth no one is really an actual DOER all are merely some level of HEARER"

Steaver said --You will have to define "doers of the law". Those who do all the law, every day, how much law, dietary law, an eye for an eye law, perfect law keepers, never fail, never intentionally lie (even a tiny little one), never steal (even a paper clip, a sheet of paper), never tell one gossip, never slander a brother, never say a bad word about the government, never complain about the job you have to do?


And once again the EDIT serves to make your point perfectly sir.

Which leaves me very puzzled by your opening claim that the EDITS do NOT reflect your beliefs!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I

"How much fruit counts" I asked.

"No way to know" I replied.

And then my response is of the form "so toss that rule out the window there is just no way to rely on that text of scripture unless we edit as follows to fit your view".



(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7


Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.


Bob edits -- "
"Not merely everyone who DOES the will of My FAther but anyone who merely SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven "??? Matt 7

Example; I see a person giving a cup of cold water to another, kindness is a fruit of the Spirit. Should the act of kindness in and of itself cause me to believe that this person is a child of God? "Fruit" alone isn't enough is it?

As I said "TOSS that rule given to us by Christ out the window"

How many more times do you need it said??

Catholics believe that good works can only be done through man by the Holy Spirit and therefore anyone with good works is a sign that they are saved even apart from faith in Christ.

And what if it is a professing Christian that is bearing fruits of the Spirit that I can see and I have seen them do many wonderful works in the Lord's name, yet I also have seen them do a couple bad works not worthy of a Christian to partake in, are they still considered a Christian? Or must they have 100% good fruits and 0% bad?

No way to know - just toss Christ's words right out the window or edit as I have given it.


(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7


Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

You tell me Bob what your definition of "you shall know them by their fruits" is. Good fruit ALL the time, most of the time, some of the time? Can there be good fruits along with bad fruits, is there a scale that we should judge the fruits by? Just what would you say is the way we should look upon this word by Jesus?

With the edit I proposed I think you will find all your issues go away sir


(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7


Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

Steaver said
If you do not answer any of this at least answer this one question for me, Does a good fruit tree, I am talking about a real tree here, bear 100% good fruit?

Nope - toss it out or edit that rule too!!

Or is there always a certain percentage of rotten fruit or fruit that just doesn't fully develope coming off of a otherwise good tree?

good point. Let's never read Matt 7 again sir!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"No way to know" I replied.

And then my response is of the form "so toss that rule out the window there is just no way to rely on that text of scripture unless we edit as follows to fit your view".

I understand you want a black and white, cut and dried, do it or else burn view of scripture. But one must take in the full counsel of God's word to get the full understanding of a single line of scripture.

There is no edit needed for my view to coinside with the full counsel of God's word. You insisting on comparing one liners to my views do not do any harm to my view (only in your eyes), they only show that you are not showing yourself approved to rightly divide God's word.

The "rule" Jesus delivered is truth, but it takes the full counsel of God's word to put it into proper context. In it's proper context, it coinsides with my view of what the scriptures teach concerning Christian behavior.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver said Quote:
Catholics believe that good works can only be done through man by the Holy Spirit and therefore anyone with good works is a sign that they are saved even apart from faith in Christ.

And what if it is a professing Christian that is bearing fruits of the Spirit that I can see and I have seen them do many wonderful works in the Lord's name, yet I also have seen them do a couple bad works not worthy of a Christian to partake in, are they still considered a Christian? Or must they have 100% good fruits and 0% bad?

No way to know - just toss Christ's words right out the window or edit as I have given it.

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

Steaver said
Quote:
You tell me Bob what your definition of "you shall know them by their fruits" is. Good fruit ALL the time, most of the time, some of the time? Can there be good fruits along with bad fruits, is there a scale that we should judge the fruits by? Just what would you say is the way we should look upon this word by Jesus?

With the edit I proposed I think you will find all your issues go away sir

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits as you keep pointing out so the EDIT fits your view pefectly sir.

[quot]Steaver
There is no edit needed for my view to coinside with the full counsel of God's word. [/quote]

Kind of an innexplicable response to that sequence above Steaver. At some point you need to SHOW that the edit is NOT what you are arguing since each time that ACTUAL text is quoted you offer all of your little "puzzles" against it.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to confirm this fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Kind of an innexplicable response to that sequence above Steaver. At some point you need to SHOW that the edit is NOT what you are arguing since each time that ACTUAL text is quoted you offer all of your little "puzzles" against it.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to confirm this fact.

in Christ,

Bob

So I need to show that YOUR edit of scripture does NOT coinside with MY statement? You make a claim but do not have to explain that claim? It is I who has to explain that your claim does not fit my statement? I see!

How about you SHOW me how my statement DOES coinside with your edit?

You just saying it is so does not SHOW that it is so!

Tell you what, you can explain how your edit is equal to my statement and then I can refute or concede.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

So I need to show that YOUR edit of scripture does NOT coinside with MY statement? You make a claim but do not have to explain that claim?

This is the part where I SHOW that the edit of the scripture that YOU NEED and what "you are posting" are in fact the SAME thing.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1033342&postcount=65

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see if this is really as confusing as Steaver is claiming.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

This is the part where I SHOW that the edit of the scripture that YOU NEED and what "you are posting" are in fact the SAME thing.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...2&postcount=65

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see if this is really as confusing as Steaver is claiming.

In Christ,

Bob

Sorry brother. That is not an explanation, that is only a claim. It is left to you to explain how my statement equals your statement. Give a "puzzle" maybe. :wavey:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I am sorry - I did not realize that it was still being left to me to post this --

Here it is again --

Quote:
Steaver said Quote:
Catholics believe that good works can only be done through man by the Holy Spirit and therefore anyone with good works is a sign that they are saved even apart from faith in Christ.

And what if it is a professing Christian that is bearing fruits of the Spirit that I can see and I have seen them do many wonderful works in the Lord's name, yet I also have seen them do a couple bad works not worthy of a Christian to partake in, are they still considered a Christian? Or must they have 100% good fruits and 0% bad?

No way to know - just toss Christ's words right out the window or edit as I have given it.

Quote:
(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

Quote:
Steaver said
Quote:
You tell me Bob what your definition of "you shall know them by their fruits" is. Good fruit ALL the time, most of the time, some of the time? Can there be good fruits along with bad fruits, is there a scale that we should judge the fruits by? Just what would you say is the way we should look upon this word by Jesus?

With the edit I proposed I think you will find all your issues go away sir

Quote:
(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits as you keep pointing out so the EDIT fits your view pefectly sir.

Steaver
There is no edit needed for my view to coinside with the full counsel of God's word.

Kind of an innexplicable response to that sequence above Steaver. At some point you need to SHOW that the edit is NOT what you are arguing since each time that ACTUAL text is quoted you offer all of your little "puzzles" against it.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to confirm this fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You see Steaver - your opposition to the text is clearly seen in your own mincing of words regarding the text.

As I said - your position is more more clear to the objective reader than you have been hoping. I am happy at this point to leave it to the reader to figure it out.

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)...You see Steaver - your opposition to the text is clearly seen in your own mincing of words regarding the text.

As I said - your position is more more clear to the objective reader than you have been hoping. I am happy at this point to leave it to the reader to figure it out.

So says you brother. :thumbs:

ps. (anyone who clearly sees what Bob sees is more than welcome to help me see it)

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

Well since we are on a "NEW page" and the reader may not know which page to go back to --- I just want to make sure we are letting Steaver's questions speak for themselves and my responses speak to the point as well when the objective reader get's around to the last page of the thread.

Steaver said Quote:
Catholics believe that good works can only be done through man by the Holy Spirit and therefore anyone with good works is a sign that they are saved even apart from faith in Christ.

And what if it is a professing Christian that is bearing fruits of the Spirit that I can see and I have seen them do many wonderful works in the Lord's name, yet I also have seen them do a couple bad works not worthy of a Christian to partake in, are they still considered a Christian? Or must they have 100% good fruits and 0% bad?

No way to know - just toss Christ's words right out the window or edit as I have given it.

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits.

Steaver said

You tell me Bob what your definition of "you shall know them by their fruits" is. Good fruit ALL the time, most of the time, some of the time? Can there be good fruits along with bad fruits, is there a scale that we should judge the fruits by? Just what would you say is the way we should look upon this word by Jesus?

With the edit I proposed I think you will find all your issues go away sir

(BobRyan)..."By their fruits you shall NOT know them"? Matt 7

Then Steaver said "You will have to define "how much fruit" counts. One pear, a bushel, a truck load?"

Precisely sir -- there is just no way to know them by their fruits as you keep pointing out so the EDIT fits your view pefectly sir.

Steaver
There is no edit needed for my view to coinside with the full counsel of God's word.

Kind of an innexplicable response to that sequence above Steaver. At some point you need to SHOW that the edit is NOT what you are arguing since each time that ACTUAL text is quoted you offer all of your little "puzzles" against it.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to confirm this fact.