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Works

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Moriah

New Member
We have to have Jesus’ teachings and obey to be saved. When one hears the message that saves, if you believe the message but do not believe you are a sinner that needs to be forgiven, then you are not saved, even though you believe.

Why is there such a misunderstanding about how we are saved. We are saved by faith and obeying Jesus. We are not saved by works of the law, like circumcision.

People think that obeying Jesus is a work, but that is not so. It is not a work to confess sin and repent. It is not a work to do good. We are supposed to do good. It is not a work to stop stealing or cheating on your wife.

The law does not just mean not to steal, commit adultery, etc., the works of the law were circumcision, it is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations.

God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Therefore, we are not to let anyone judge us by what we eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of what were to come; the reality, however, we find in Christ.

On the Sabbath day, the law said that no one could work, not to even lift objects. Do you see the correlation from Sabbath day no works to no works for being saved? Jesus is our Sabbath rest, we are saved by faith, and not of by works. A NO WORK rule was in place for the Sabbath day. Just like we are saved by faith and NO WORKS; however, Jesus says it is UNLAWFUL to do evil on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, and Jesus said it was LAWFUL to do good on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, see Luke 6:9.
For people to misconstrue that no work means we do not have to repent from doing evil before Jesus saves us is absurd. Jesus tells us to believe and repent, Matthew 4:17. God knows are hearts and if we are truly contrite, Acts 15:8. The message that saves is a message that says Jesus died for sinners, Acts 11:14. If we hear the message that saves, yet do not believe we are sinners and need to stop sinning, then God will know this.
 
S

seekingthetruth

New Member
Moriah said:
We have to have Jesus’ teachings and obey to be saved. When one hears the message that saves, if you believe the message but do not believe you are a sinner that needs to be forgiven, then you are not saved, even though you believe.

Why is there such a misunderstanding about how we are saved. We are saved by faith and obeying Jesus. We are not saved by works of the law, like baptism.

People think that obeying Jesus is a work, but that is not so. It is not a work to confess sin and repent. It is not a work to do good. We are supposed to do good. It is not a work to stop stealing or cheating on your wife.

The law does not just mean not to steal, commit adultery, etc., the works of the law were circumcision, it is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations.

God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Therefore, we are not to let anyone judge us by what we eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of what were to come; the reality, however, we find in Christ.

On the Sabbath day, the law said that no one could work, not to even lift objects. Do you see the correlation from Sabbath day no works to no works for being saved? Jesus is our Sabbath rest, we are saved by faith, and not of by works. A NO WORK rule was in place for the Sabbath day. Just like we are saved by faith and NO WORKS; however, Jesus says it is UNLAWFUL to do evil on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, and Jesus said it was LAWFUL to do good on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, see Luke 6:9.
For people to misconstrue that no work means we do not have to repent from doing evil before Jesus saves us is absurd. Jesus tells us to believe and repent, Matthew 4:17. God knows are hearts and if we are truly contrite, Acts 15:8. The message that saves is a message that says Jesus died for sinners, Acts 11:14. If we hear the message that saves, yet do not believe we are sinners and need to stop sinning, then God will know this.
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Wow, good post.

Doing the right thing is not a work, it is a commandment.:thumbs:

John
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
A work at its very inception is simply an act of the will. Works are thought of in two senses.There are works of merit, and there are works that are simply fulfilling conditions required by God, which are works but NOT meritorious in nature. Works of merit would be thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of." Works that simply fulfill conditions set forth by God are thought of in the sense of 'not without which.' Here is an illustration I post from time to time to illustrates these points.


A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. You cannot then consider any intents or actions formed by the prisoner as the grounds of his pardon, nor could you say that he in any way could ‘merit’ a pardon. IF he is granted a pardon it cannot be said that in any sense his pardon was ‘for the sake of’ anything the prisoner had done or could do.

Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just. . If the prisoner is to receive a pardon it still can be said that there must be attitudes that are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word being something the prisoner must do. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal. Here we see that the intents and actions of the prisoner indeed do play a part in a pardon, though again, not in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' The sense that the intents and works of the prisoner are involved in a pardon can only be seen in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Nothing the prisoner can or will do can merit a pardon, but just the same neither will he receive a pardon without repentance and an assurance of future behavior is garnered.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are again, in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on the account of any or all of their works. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’

It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’) in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Such I believe is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon, but just the same no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent, exercise faith, and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord. Those set conditions by God are indeed 'works in the sense of ' 'not without which.' They are not meritorius in and of themselves, but are required by God to inherit eternal life.
 
M

Moriah

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Such I believe is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon, but just the same no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent, exercise faith, and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord. Those set conditions by God are indeed 'works in the sense of ' 'not without which.' They are not meritorius in and of themselves, but are required by God to inherit eternal life.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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Do I understand you correctly, in what you are saying…are you agreeing that there are works of the law that we do not have to do anymore, such a circumcision, but that there are the commands of the Lord in which we have to do or we cannot be saved?
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
HP: Absolutely. If man does not repent, exercise faith, or continue in obedience until the end, he has no certain hope of eternal life. Those are conditions, works in a sense, that man must do in order to obtain eternal life. NOTHING man does in any way is meritorious, or merits salvation, but neither will salvation be gained apart from the fulfilling of these clearly stated conditions. I will try to give a clear Scriptural illustration soon.
 
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seekingthetruth

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Absolutely. If man does not repent, exercise faith, or continue in obedience until the end, he has no certain hope of eternal life. Those are conditions, works in a sense, that man must do in order to obtain eternal life. NOTHING man does in any way is meritorious, or merits salvation, but neither will salvation be gained apart from the fulfilling of these clearly stated conditions. I will try to give a clear Scriptural illustration soon.
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Are you advocating conditional salvation? Saved on the days we are obedient, and lost on the days we are not?

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is continually obedient to the end. We are all sinners, some of us are just saved sinners.

John
 
M

Moriah

New Member
seekingthetruth said:
You misunderstood me.

Many people "believe", but few act on that belief. That is why few are saved.

John
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I am so happy to meet you …lol…I mistook you for Savedbymercy. I am so glad to meet another like-minded Christian. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
M

Moriah

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Absolutely. If man does not repent, exercise faith, or continue in obedience until the end, he has no certain hope of eternal life. Those are conditions, works in a sense, that man must do in order to obtain eternal life. NOTHING man does in any way is meritorious, or merits salvation, but neither will salvation be gained apart from the fulfilling of these clearly stated conditions. I will try to give a clear Scriptural illustration soon.
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Thank you for clarifying. I am so glad to hear you believe the Truth with this. I will enjoy any information from the scriptures you will give to support the truth.
 
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Moriah

New Member
seekingthetruth said:
Are you advocating conditional salvation? Saved on the days we are obedient, and lost on the days we are not?

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is continually obedient to the end. We are all sinners, some of us are just saved sinners.

John
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When a Christian does sin, we can have forgiveness.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

What do you mean no one is obedient to the end? How can that be that no one is obedient to the end? We are not to sin, but when we do we have forgiveness, when we repent, so how is it possible to not be obedient to the end?
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
One of the best illustrations in Scripture illustrating the impact of conditions, is found in Acts chapter 27. Here we find Paul on a ship of Alexandria sailing to Italy. Paul warned those commanding the ship that if they continued their voyage they were in great danger. They obviously did not heed the warnings of all and sailed on only to encounter a very strong when called Euroclyan.

After a few days, and clearly fearing for their lives, an angel appeared and Paul in the night.

Acts 27:24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

Illustrated here is the foreknowledge of God, or the end of that which is to come to pass. Still yet, listen to the command of Paul as it was given to him by the angels.

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Do you see how, although the promise was that none would be lost, that obedience was required to be saved? The grounds of their safety was NOT their obedience, but rather the grace and hand of God Almighty by grace. That in no wise excluded the condition they must of necessity fulfill in order to be saved, i.e., "ABIDE IN THE SHIP."

This illustrates the distinction between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation. Nothing they were required to do was meritorious, i.e., nothing they could do could in anyway earn them salvation, yet obedience was required, without which none would be saved. It took a work, and act of their will, to be saved, choosing to remain and abide in the ship, but works did not save them. Their obedience is thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of. They were saved 'for the sake of' God's mercy apart from works, yet they would not have been saved apart from a work God commanded of them, i.e., to abide in the ship, the stated condition or work thought of in the sense of 'not without which.'
 
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billwald

New Member
>Yes it is ! Keeping a commandment is a work, its doing something !

Same as "inviting Jesus" or "believing (in) Jesus."
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Faith is NOT a work in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' We are not saved 'for the sake of our obedience or faith,' but rather we are saved for the sake of God's mercy. Still yet, neither will we be saved 'apart from' our will acting in obedience to the conditions God has set forth.
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
BW: But WHY does a person believe? Because he suddenly got smarter?
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HP: The cause lies in the will of man and is to us a mystery. Just as there is no 'reason' as to why one sins, there is no set 'reason' to give why man obeys. It is good only to know that whatever you do, you will be held accountable. That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, man is the first cause of their decisions, and as such accountable for them.
 
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