Works

[Moriah]

>Yes it is ! Keeping a commandment is a work, its doing something !

Same as "inviting Jesus" or "believing (in) Jesus."

It is not a work in the way circumcision and sacrifices were works.

God’s people were the Jews; they were God’s chosen for following the law of works. When they sinned, they were commanded by law to give sin offerings. In this written code, a law of regulations, they were God’s people. However, God was not happy with them when those who gave sin offerings were not sorry. God who knows our hearts saves us when we hear the message and believe, and when we are truly sorry for our sins. No amount of works, i.e., sin offerings and sacrifices, nor circumcision could make a person sorry for their sins. Of course, though, some Jews loved God and were sorry for their sins, these are the Jews who were saved, and the rest were cut off.

Romans 9:31-32 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: It is not a work in the way circumcision and sacrifices were works.

HP: True in a sense. One still has to realize that before one actually carries out any outward moral action, the will forms intents and means to carry out those intents, again, antecedent to the action. Jesus made this clear when he said that if a man lusts in his heart he's already guilty of adultery. If one hates his brother and purposes in his heart to do evil to his brother, regardless if he ever has the opportunity to carry those formed intents to their willed end, in God's eyes the act is already been done. God judges the intents of the heart. Regardless if man has opportunity to carry out the intents chosen, he is morally responsible if in fact that is his honest intention to carry out given the opportunity.

Every work of man starts with an intention. When dealing with morals, the intention of the will is in fact the seat of all morality. With in the heart of man lies one's intent, and the seat of all blame or praise for those intents and any and all subsequent actions. Every intent takes a direct act of the will. It is this action of the will that again is the seat of all morality, praise or blame for ones moral choices. It is in this sense that these formed intents are indeed a work, in that they are an action or direction chosen by the will. Again every moral active man starts with a moral intents chosen by the will antecedent to any and all outward action. The will in the heart of man again is the seat of all works of man. Man can only do as he wills.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

neither will we be saved 'apart from' our will acting in obedience to the conditions God has set forth.

Thats works and a rejection of Salvation by Grace !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hogwash savedbymercy. You saying so does not make it so.

 

[savedbymercy]

Hogwash savedbymercy. You saying so does not make it so.

You denying it will change nothing, you teach and believe in salvation by works !

 

[Moriah]

HP: True in a sense. One still has to realize that before one actually carries out any outward moral action, the will forms intents and means to carry out those intents, again, antecedent to the action. Jesus made this clear when he said that if a man lusts in his heart he's already guilty of adultery. If one hates his brother and purposes in his heart to do evil to his brother, regardless if he ever has the opportunity to carry those formed intents to their willed end, in God's eyes the act is already been done. God judges the intents of the heart. Regardless if man has opportunity to carry out the intents chosen, he is morally responsible if in fact that is his honest intention to carry out given the opportunity.

Every work of man starts with an intention. When dealing with morals, the intention of the will is in fact the seat of all morality. With in the heart of man lies one's intent, and the seat of all blame or praise for those intents and any and all subsequent actions. Every intent takes a direct act of the will. It is this action of the will that again is the seat of all morality, praise or blame for ones moral choices. It is in this sense that these formed intents are indeed a work, in that they are an action or direction chosen by the will. Again every moral active man starts with a moral intents chosen by the will antecedent to any and all outward action. The will in the heart of man again is the seat of all works of man. Man can only do as he wills.

I do not know why you say “true in a sense” when I say it is not a work in the way circumcision and sacrifices were works. Why only in a sense?

Not to hate your brother is a teaching of Jesus, and no circumcision of the flesh, nor any amount of sin offerings and sacrifices could make a person love his brother. However, the law required sin offerings and sacrifices. We are not saved by the written code and its regulations; we are saved by believing with our hearts, and by confession. No one is saved any more by those regulations; those are the works we are not saved by.
I hope I am making sense to you.

 

[Moriah]

You denying it will change nothing, you teach and believe in salvation by works !

You are not separating what works are. There are the works of the law, i.e. circumcision and sin offerings. It is not a work to be sorry for your sins. It is not a work to stop committing adultery.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The only time works are said not to be involved in our salvation, is when they are being thought of or spoken of in the sense of the grounds of our salvation. Nothing we do is the reason why salvation was offered, neither does the will of man have anything to do with the plan or means of salvation as chosen by God.

Works are always said to be involved with salvation in the sense of fulfilling the stated conditions of repentance, faith and obedience. Scripture goes as far to say that faith without works is dead being alone.

Dead faith will save no one, We should be able to show forth our faith BY our works just as James said he did, without which our faith is dead,i.e., meaningless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We will both have our day in His court savedbymercy. We shall see.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

The only time works are said not to be involved in our salvation, is when they are being thought of or spoken of in the sense of the grounds of our salvation.

When you make something you must do as a obligation to get saved, thats what your doing, a work, that condition you perform is the ground of your salvation, sorry, you cannot get around it !

 

[Moriah]

Has anyone noticed that we are saved by faith and not by works; however, in James, we are told about faith and deeds. Why does James call it deeds and not works? I believe James calls it deeds and not works because works are circumcision and offerings, yet deeds are acts of love and kindness. This proves that the works we are not saved by is works of the law like circumcision. Repenting is not a work. Giving your brother clothes and daily food is not a work those are deeds.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

savedbymercy, were those saved on the ship (Acts27) saved by works or grace? Is the prisoner (in my illustrationm) that is pardoned pardoned by works or by grace?

 

[Moriah]

hp



When you make something you must do as a obligation to get saved, thats what your doing, a work, that condition you perform is the ground of your salvation, sorry, you cannot get around it !

Again, you are getting deeds and works mixed up. We are not saved by works; however, we are saved by faith and deeds.


James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[Moriah]

We are not saved by "works of the law."


Galatians 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

We are saved by believing and obeying. We are saved by faith and deeds.


John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.


Acts 5:30-32 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead---whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

"...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

 

[savedbymercy]

savedbymercy, were those saved on the ship (Acts27) saved by works or grace? Is the prisoner (in my illustrationm) that is pardoned pardoned by works or by grace?

That is not relevant to this case. If you believe that one is saved because they did something, which believing is doing something, its doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23, then you believe in salvation by works !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

savedbymercy: If you believe that one is saved because they did something, which believing is doing something, its doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23, then you believe in salvation by works !

HP: Where have I ever said that man is saved 'because' of something they did?

Of a truth, reading comprehension is a skill that has to be developed.

 

[billwald]

>We are not saved by "works of the law."

If a person does the WOL because he thinks it will save him flunks but if a person who never heard of the law does them, he passes?

 

[JarJo]

work, but that is not so. It is not a work to confess sin and repent. It is not a work to do good. We are supposed to do good. It is not a work to stop stealing or cheating on your wife.

If this is so, then basically your theology is Catholic. You include repentance and obedience to Christ among the things that are part of faith, rather than works. Same as us. :jesus:

 

[billwald]

>Giving your brother clothes and daily food is not a work those are deeds.

This is gnostic thinking in the sense that it gives common words a secret meaning that only insiders can understand. At least Catholics use plain English. You want to know what a "Catholic" word means, use an English dictionary. You want to know what a "Baptist" words means, buy a Baptist systematic theology.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

Where have I ever said that man is saved 'because' of something they did?

Cmon give me a break. You know you believe and teach that a person cannot get saved unless they believe or repent. Now do you deny this ?