Works

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Post #3 and #14 both explain in detail the difference between grounds and conditions. All acts of man involved in salvation are thought of in the sense of 'not without which' NOT 'that for the sake of' or 'because' as you put it.

 

[Moriah]

>We are not saved by "works of the law."

If a person does the WOL because he thinks it will save him flunks but if a person who never heard of the law does them, he passes?

Works of the law are circumcision, and that type of works. We are NOT saved by the WORKS OF THE LAW, like circumcision. That does NOT mean we do not have to do anything to be saved. Even the demons believe there is One God. We MUST believe in our heart AND CONFESS. WE MUST have Jesus’ teaching AND OBEY them. You are teaching confusion to those who want to be saved when you say we just have to believe and do nothing else. We cannot JUST say we believe and think we can just receive the Holy Spirit without agreeing that you will obey Jesus. The Bible says we are given the Holy Spirit when we obey.

 

[Moriah]

If this is so, then basically your theology is Catholic. You include repentance and obedience to Christ among the things that are part of faith, rather than works. Same as us. :jesus:

Christians do NOT have to do any of the works of the law, i.e. circumcision, observance of special days, etc. Just be sure you understand what a works of the law is, and what obeying Jesus’ teachings are.

I definitely include repentance and obedience to Christ in our salvation.
However, Catholics are NOT obedient to Christ.
Catholics go against the Word of God. Catholics call their brothers ‘father.’ Catholics call their leader ‘Holy Father.’ Catholics make images, bow to them, and incense them. Catholics perform infant baptism; they forbid marriage and the eating of certain foods on certain days. Catholics believe they can turn the wafer and wine into the real body and blood of Jesus Christ. Catholics believe in canonization of the “Saints.” They believe in prayer to the “Saints.” Catholics exalt Mary and make her a co-redeemer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah, I for one believe you are going to find it very dificult to defend a position that says works and deeds are distinct.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, I for one believe you are going to find it very dificult to defend a position that says works and deeds are distinct.

It is the powerful truth. It is plain and simple. I am sorry, but your definition of obeying is confusing.

The law is everything, in that it includes sins not to do and good things to do, AND it includes the WORKS OF THE LAW. The works of the law are circumcision, the works of the law is a written code with external regulations, it is the observance of special days, it is a matter of eating, and drinking, it is a matter of sin offerings and sacrifices.
THAT is NOT how Jesus saves us. Those works of the law plus faith do NOT save us. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. We still HAVE TO have Jesus’ teachings and OBEY them. If a person merely believes that God and Jesus are One, that is not enough, for even the demons believe that. THE WORD OF GOD SAYS we will receive His Spirit WHEN we OBEY. How anyone can make long explanations to something so pure and simple is beyond me.

 

[savedbymercy]

Post #3 and #14 both explain in detail the difference between grounds and conditions. All acts of man involved in salvation are thought of in the sense of 'not without which' NOT 'that for the sake of' or 'because' as you put it.

It does not make any difference, you believe a person is saved as a result of something they do, I do not care how much you deny it and try to twist it.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, I for one believe you are going to find it very dificult to defend a position that says works and deeds are distinct.

Again, a WORK OF THE LAW is circumcision. A WORK OF THE LAW is the observance of special days. A WORK OF THE LAW is a matter of eating and drinking. A WORK OF THE LAW is sin offerings and sacrifices.

A DEED is to obey Jesus. To feed and clothe your brother in need. A DEED is to treat others the way you would like to be treated.

Do you not see how a WORK OF THE LAW is different than a DEED? Do you not see how a WORK OF THE LAW does not save, but obeying Jesus' teachings on DEEDS.

 

[Moriah]

The Jews were God’s people by following the works of the law. The Jews had the law of works, and in this, they were called God’s people. The works of the law, i.e. circumcision, sin offerings, and sacrifices, save no one anymore; we are saved only by faith in Jesus. The works of the law could save the Jews even if they did not have faith in God. When someone does the works of the law, it shows nothing about the condition of their heart. God nailed the written code with its regulations to the cross; we no longer have to have circumcision, or sin offerings, the observance of special days. Jesus fulfilled all the works of the law, so in faith in Jesus and His blood, that is how God saves us. To be saved, we still have to do that which is good. We still are not to do that which is evil.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is exercising faith a work or a deed? Is repentance a work or a deed? Is obedience to moral law a work or a deed?

A deed is that which is done. An act. A deed is something done good or bad.

Work is to make an action. A work is to produce by action. A work can be thought of as simply to cause or being the cause, because an action of the will is involved.

 

[Moriah]

Is exercising faith a work or a deed? Is repentance a work or a deed? Is obedience to moral law a work or a deed?

None of those are works of the law.

A deed is that which is done. An act. A deed is something done good or bad.

Even on the Sabbath, the Sabbath when works were not allowed, Jesus says it is right to do good on the Sabbath, and it is wrong to do evil on the Sabbath, the Sabbath in which there is NO WORKS.

Work is to make an action. A work is to produce by action. A work can be thought of as simply to cause or being the cause.

The WORKS OF THE LAW is circumcision, observance of special days, a matter of eating and drinking, of sin offerings and sacrifices. Those are the WORKS OF THE LAW. THE WORKS OF THE LAW once saved Jews, when they sinned, they could do WORKS OF THE LAW and be saved, and they would still be considered ‘God’s people.’ Those WORKS of the law did NOTHING for a person with lusts in their hearts. People are saved by faith In Jesus. Again, we still are not to do evil. We still have to do that which is good. JESUS is the One who says we receive the Holy Spirit WHEN WE HAVE HIS TEACHINGS AND OBEY THEM.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah, I tried to clearly illustrate how the word 'works' is thought of in two senses, which I believe clarifies the issue of works. Obviously what satisfies ones mind does not always satisfy the mind of another. I am certain the manner in which I penned my illustrations could use some improvement.:thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

Is exercising faith a work or a deed? Is repentance a work or a deed? Is obedience to moral law a work or a deed?

A deed is that which is done. An act. A deed is something done good or bad.

Work is to make an action. A work is to produce by action. A work can be thought of as simply to cause or being the cause, because an action of the will is involved.

Philp. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God alone is the source of "good works" from the act of the will to the deed performed - For it is God WHICH WORKETH these things.

Everything else done by men are vain works. This is why we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit or under the control ofthe Spirit as that is precisely how "good works" occur from the act of willing to the external performance.

Good works arise from that which is created by God within you that provides the intent because it is created in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24) and in regard to the willingness to the deed - all by God working it both in you and out of you. Yeilding to the Spirit is what you do and that comes by willingness and that is what God provides by His power.

Psa. 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

That makes God both the "author and the finisher of your faith" - Heb. 12:2

 

[Moriah]

Philp. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. God alone is the source of "good works" from the act of the will to the deed performed - For it is God WHICH WORKETH these things.

How do you ever get that this proves total depravity? I have shown you scripture many times that we can remember God’s ways and gladly do right, except we cannot stop sinning without the Holy Spirit. We cannot continue to please God unless we have the Holy Spirit. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It IS scripture. Read Isaiah 64:5.

Everything else done by men are vain works. This is why we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit or under the control ofthe Spirit as that is precisely how "good works" occur from the act of willing to the external performance.

If a person hears about Jesus and obeys by believing and repenting, and calling on the name of the Lord, IT IS NOT IN VAIN. Stop throwing in John Calvin’s words with my God’s words. Stop confusing people and leading them against the Truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

How do you ever get that this proves total depravity?

First, you don't know what you are talking about! I never gave this text to prove total depravity. I gave it to prove that good works are the product of God working in His children.

Second, I get sick and tired of your tirades about Calvin when I have NEVER EVER mentioned him or his terminologies but have strictly and only presented scriptures and restricted my comments to the very WORDS of Scripture which you are completely ignorant about and show that ignornance by refusing to comment on the WORDS of Scripture but instead talk about Calvin.

Third, you must worship Calvin as you talk about him more than any person I have read on this forum. Get over your love life with Calvin and instead of talking about Calvin, start dealing with the BIBLICAL TERMS and scriptures being put in your face.


Last, what I said was "in vain" was all works by Christians that do not originate from the indwelling Spirit of God. So get your facts right! I am not talking about lost people. You simply advertise your ignorance.

 

[Moriah]

First, you don't know what you are talking about! I never gave this text to prove total depravity. I gave it to prove that good works are the product of God working in His children.

Second, I get sick and tired of your tirades about Calvin when I have NEVER EVER mentioned him or his terminologies but have strictly and only presented scriptures and restricted my comments to the very WORDS of Scripture which you are completely ignorant about and show that ignornance by refusing to comment on the WORDS of Scripture but instead talk about Calvin.

Third, you must worship Calvin as you talk about him more than any person I have read on this forum. Get over your love life with Calvin and instead of talking about Calvin, start dealing with the BIBLICAL TERMS and scriptures being put in your face.


Last, what I said was "in vain" was all works by Christians that do not originate from the indwelling Spirit of God. So get your facts right! I am not talking about lost people. You simply advertise your ignorance.

It is NOT in vain to obey Jesus before he saves us. You were trying to put in our minds the lie of Calvinism. Stop teaching your falseness. Admit John Calvin taught falseness, or admit you are a Calvinist who is trying to lead others astray.