convicted1
Guest
I thought he did this while in St. Louis? I guess I am wrong.......yup....I'm stoopid.......he did this in 1972 with the Phillies.......need to listen to the elder folk more often, I reckon......
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World Series
- Thread starter Andy T.
- Start date
I thought he did this while in St. Louis? I guess I am wrong.......yup....I'm stoopid.......he did this in 1972 with the Phillies.......need to listen to the elder folk more often, I reckon......
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Well, sometimes... Lefty was amazing no matter where he was at!
Pete Rose, Pete Rose....fun to watch.....Hustle Hustle Hustle.
Who you calling old, wise guy.... Just cause I liked Tom Seaver & Ed Kranepool? Whipper Snapper!
Jim Leyland is on my list of vastly overrated managers along with Ozzie Guillen and Bobby Valentine.
In last night's game in the first inning with one out Quentin Berry drew a walk. Quentin Berry has been perfect in stolen base opportunities--21 for 21 in the regular season and 2 for 2 in the postseason. Miguel Cabrera is due up next and I figure Berry is going to steal second base and get into scoring position.
Ah....no. Nope. Nada. Jim Leyland doesn't have him steal. Cabrera then weakly singles to left field. With his speed Berry probably would have scored on that play, but now he's stuck at 2nd. Next guy up, Prince Fielder grounds into an inning ending double play.
In last night's game in the first inning with one out Quentin Berry drew a walk. Quentin Berry has been perfect in stolen base opportunities--21 for 21 in the regular season and 2 for 2 in the postseason. Miguel Cabrera is due up next and I figure Berry is going to steal second base and get into scoring position.
Ah....no. Nope. Nada. Jim Leyland doesn't have him steal. Cabrera then weakly singles to left field. With his speed Berry probably would have scored on that play, but now he's stuck at 2nd. Next guy up, Prince Fielder grounds into an inning ending double play.
Agree that Leyland is overrated. He's good at managing a clubhouse over a long 162-game season, and keeping the players at an even keel. Conversely, he's bad at motivating a team in the postseason and instilling a sense of urgency in his players. Thus, he has had success in the regular season, while not so much in the postseason. And he is an average tactician when it come to in-game moves.
Good analysis. You have my sympathy on the outcome of the World Series. Even though my fave team is the Twins and our teams are rivals I wanted the Tigers to win it. It must be a huge letdown to get swept.
Yep, it was pretty disheartening. The way the Giants were playing/pitching, it would've been hard to beat them over 7 games, but it would've been nice for the Tigers to make it interesting and win a couple games. Even winning last night would've made it interesting with Verlander pitching in game 5. The Tigers gave their fans nothing in the series - absolutely nothing. I think the team should issue a formal apology to the fans for such an embarrassing showing.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
It seemed that whatever was making the yankee bats sick was contagious. Too bad.
After the disappointing World Series performance by the Tigers, it's nice to know Vegas is on our side for 2013. The Tigers are the early favorites to win the 2013 W.S.:
Tigers 6-1, Yankees 7-1, Giants 10-1, Nationals 12-1, Rangers 12-1, Angels 12-1, PHI/STL/CIN/ATL all 14-1.
Tigers 6-1, Yankees 7-1, Giants 10-1, Nationals 12-1, Rangers 12-1, Angels 12-1, PHI/STL/CIN/ATL all 14-1.
Tigers just announced Leyland is returning for 2013. Somewhat mixed emotions on this, but overall I am pleased. The only thing I don't like at all are his ineffective hitting coach (McClendon) and shoddy 3rd base coach (LaMont - who would do much better as a bench coach).
Let's see....Leyland overuses pitchers. His insistence that Verlander can regularly go 120+ pitches will come back to haunt him later in his contract. Last year he used his closer and setup guy so many times in the ALCS they weren't available for Game 5. Oh well, just have Verlander throw 130+ pitches.
He plays guys out of position quite frequently. He had Alex Avila play 3B last year in interleague play. Surprise! He committed an error. Also last year in interleague play he had Don Kelly at catcher after Victor Martinez got hurt even though he had Alex Avila available to play. Kelly only had one passed ball. Kelly even pitched a bit in 2011, because Leyland used up his pitchers.
Having Cabrera and Fielder batting back to back is fearsome but having them on the basepaths at the same time is a handicap.
He doesn't utilize his running game effectively. His love affair with strikeout heavy Brandon Inge finally ended, etc. etc.
Can't believe I'm about to defend Leyland, but here goes. Yes, he is not the best in-game manager, but there is a lot more to managing than that. He runs a great clubhouse, and knows how to manage the long 162-game season.
He does not overuse his pitchers (like he did in Pitt). He is not overusing Verlander. In fact, pitchers are way too babied today. 120 pitches is not that much. 130 isn't even excessive, if you throw with good mechanics. And Verlander has impeccable mechanics, which is why he's never been on the DL.
Overall, he and Jeff Jones have handled the pitching staff quite well - it's the strength of the team. Now hitting is another story - I don't like McClendon at all - I think he needs to go, but Leyland is too loyal, which is great up to a point.
And to say that Cabrera and Fielder should not be hitting 3-4 because they are both slow is insane. Those two hitting 3-4 are one of the main reasons we won the Central this year - they both produced big time. And it helps that they are righty-lefty. Of course they are slow - nothing Leyland can do about that. If you don't think the Tigers should have slow players, blame Dave Dombrowski, not Leyland.
Overall, I think Leyland is a B manager. He's not the A manager that some make him out to be. But he is certainly not a C-D manager that you portray him. With the lack of available options out there, I am fine with Leyland managing another year. We could do much worse.
He does not overuse his pitchers (like he did in Pitt). He is not overusing Verlander. In fact, pitchers are way too babied today. 120 pitches is not that much. 130 isn't even excessive, if you throw with good mechanics. And Verlander has impeccable mechanics, which is why he's never been on the DL.
Overall, he and Jeff Jones have handled the pitching staff quite well - it's the strength of the team. Now hitting is another story - I don't like McClendon at all - I think he needs to go, but Leyland is too loyal, which is great up to a point.
And to say that Cabrera and Fielder should not be hitting 3-4 because they are both slow is insane. Those two hitting 3-4 are one of the main reasons we won the Central this year - they both produced big time. And it helps that they are righty-lefty. Of course they are slow - nothing Leyland can do about that. If you don't think the Tigers should have slow players, blame Dave Dombrowski, not Leyland.
Overall, I think Leyland is a B manager. He's not the A manager that some make him out to be. But he is certainly not a C-D manager that you portray him. With the lack of available options out there, I am fine with Leyland managing another year. We could do much worse.
There is more to in-game managing, agreed, but that's about the only thing we get to actually witness and judge them on. If he's such a great 162 game manager why did the Tigers collapse down the stretch in 2006 (5 game lead on Sep. 7th, lost division on last game of season), 2007 (in 1st place as late as Aug. 16th, finished 8 games out), 2009 (7 game lead on Sep. 6th, lost Game 163 to Twins.)
Ever tallied up how many pitchers have Tommy John surgery?
He seems to be the exception to the rule, but is it worth gambling $20M a year on?
I didn't say they should not be hitting 3-4, I merely stated a fact that it is a handicap. I would suggest that Cabrera should probably not be playing 3B as often as he does. He's a liability.
I'd give him a B-/C+. You want Ron Gardenhire? I like him as a manager but I think he's unable to get players motivated anymore. I think the players have tired of his style and won't play hard for him. He's a great in-game manager, runs the pitching staff effectively (mostly), and is a great guy. But I think he's lost the clubhouse.
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Mostly young guys who have not had time to build up arm strength and/or have bad mechanics. Verlander is in neither of these categories. Leyland did not use Verlander in his first few years like he does now. The Tigers have handled him perfectly, letting him build up his stamina over the first few years of his career. Now we have the best pitcher in baseball who is a workhouse. He is Nolan Ryan with better control. If he wants to, Verlander could pitch well into his 40's. He has the work ethic and mechanics and smarts.
Yeah, well, best pitchers in baseball usually are the exception. Leyland or the Tigers are not gambling anything. Sure, there are pitchers you need to baby more (like Max Scherzer with his poor mechanics), but Verlander is not one of them.
Cabrera is not that big of a liability at 3B. Advanced fielding metrics show that he was a slightly below average fielder this year. The problem is the Tigers already had D. Young at DH, so there was little time that Cabrera (or Fielder) could DH. And you don't want Young in LF if you can avoid it. So Leyland managed with the hand he was dealt. BTW, I personally can't wait to see Young off this team - despite his sudden burst of hitting in the postseason, he was a big liability to this team. He's a guy who can't field, and as a DH, he was woefully unproductive in the regular season.
Agree on Gardy - there comes a time where it's time to move on, and I think he has reached that point. I would not want Gardy on the Tigers, because his style would not fit the current Tigers roster. He's better suited with a team that plays fundamental baseball, not sluggers like the Tigers.
I hope you're right about Verlander being able to avoid injury. He is special.
His UZR of -10 says he's "poor".
http://i.imgur.com/noRJf.gif
http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php?2812-Random-funny-stuff-depository&p=59764&viewfull=1#post59764
Agree about Young. Twins' made a mistake in that they should have unloaded him after his pretty good year of 2010; instead they dealt him mid-2011 for an A level starter (meaning they ultimately got an A level starter for Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett.)
His UZR of -10 says he's "poor".
http://i.imgur.com/noRJf.gif
http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php?2812-Random-funny-stuff-depository&p=59764&viewfull=1#post59764
Agree about Young. Twins' made a mistake in that they should have unloaded him after his pretty good year of 2010; instead they dealt him mid-2011 for an A level starter (meaning they ultimately got an A level starter for Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett.)
That's equivalent to about 1 game in the standings. I'll take that for a Triple Crown winner at the plate.
LOL on the Young pic!
