The local church that is being directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit will be doing as you stated!
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Worship the Holy Ghost With Father & Son?
- Thread starter Hark
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Hark
Well-Known Member
No. Scripture informed us of the Father's will & judgment on how He wants us to approach Him in worship ( John 14:6 ) & how to honor Him in worship ( John 5:22-23 ). There is no other way than by the only way of the Son & John 10:1 & Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24 That is the mind of Christ that Paul said to have in worship & the Philippians were to be in obedience to that Philippians 2:5-13
The model Jesus patterned for us is to come to the Father, in name of Jesus, and by the Intercession of the Holy Spirit!
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Jesus Himself commanded us that we are to pray this way:
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Praying to the Father is eminently biblical.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Care to address the scripture?
Scripture informed us of the Father's will & judgment on how He wants us to approach Him in worship ( John 14:6 ) & how to honor Him in worship ( John 5:22-23 ). There is no other way than by the only way of the Son & John 10:1 & Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24 That is the mind of Christ that Paul said to have in worship & the Philippians were to be in obedience to that Philippians 2:5-13
Hark
Well-Known Member
I did not mean to infer otherwise but note how.
Jesus said He is the only way to come to God the Father by.
Then He addressed the prayer system in how this works whereby He is the only Mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ) in that He gives our petitions ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ), the Spirit's silent petitions ( Romans 8:26-27 ), & His own petitions ( Hebrews 7:25 ) to the Father so that when the Father says yes to any of those petitions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers per John 14:13-14.
Now we can pray to the Father directly by way of the Son. In other words, the prayer to the father should be done in Jesus's name because that is how the father will answer for the Son to answer the prayer.
Praying to the Holy Spirit dishonors the Son as being the only Mediator between God & men ( John 10:1 ) & thus dishonors the Father ( John 5:22-23 )
When we look at the Pentecostals & Charismatics, in how they address the Holy Spirit in worship to come & fall on them with signs & lying wonders in these apostate movement of the spirit, we know that is not the Holy Spirit answering those prayers.
So why would God allow strong delusion to occur when they prayed to the Holy Spirit? Is it because of John 10:1 for ignoring John 14:6? is it for ignoring saved believers cannot receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation? 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:9-15 ?
So I believe there is a reason Jesus said what He has said to call sinners away from their spirits & focus on spirits visitations by the only invitation to come to the Father by the only way of the Son in worship; not just for salvation, but for living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I do not believe that this is true. The Spirit is fully God and coequal with the Father and the Son. Although the majority of the time, we are to pray to the Father, praying to the Spirit does not dishonor the Son
Hark
Well-Known Member
There is no denying the Holy Spirit is fully God but Whose will is to be done? It is neither the Holy Spirit's, nor the Son's but the Father's will be done.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Praying to the Holy Spirit implies that Jesus is not the only Mediator between God & man ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ) which is in according to the will of God the Father & the Spirit is in agreement as the scripture are too. Climbing up another way is a thief John 10:1.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; KJV
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. KJV
That includes worship in coming to God the Father by per John 14:6 because He was not just talking about the way to salvation, but the way to God the Father in anything. That means the Holy Spirit is not the Go To God for coming to God the Father by when He is the Comforter as dwelling in us to lead us to testify of the Son to glorify the Son & that includes worship too thru us..
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJV
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. KJV
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV
Note this is how the judgment of God to be over all the saved believers per John 5:22 & then see that standard of judgment per John 5:23. Note how not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father in the later part of verses 23 as definitive..
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. KJV
The question you have to ask Him is.. did He really meant that? Yes. Are there any scriptures testifying otherwise plainly on the issue of the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son? No.
If you do see slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, and even the other baptism with the Holy Ghost ( 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & Ephesians 4:4-6 & 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 ) with evidence of tongues which is gibberish nonsense ( Isaiah 8:19 & 1 John 4:1-6 ) & assumed for private use & not the real God's gift of tongues which is a foreign language for speaking unto the people as prophesied for ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 & 1 Corinthians 12:4-13, & 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 ), as not of God. then ask yourself why God would permit these strong delusions to occur by praying to or by addressing the Holy Spirit in worship?
Can the broadening of the way in the worship place is why these houses & the believers are falling down in spite of the so called professed "miracles" in Matthew 7:13-27?
Is that why the emphasis is on striving to enter thru the straight gate for life with God the Father ( John 10:1 & John 10:7-9 ) because of the iniquity of assuming because the Holy Spirit is God, it is okay to approach God the Father in another way & thus at risk of being left behind per Luke 13:24-30?
@Scripture More Accurately do we take Jesus plainly at His words that He meant them or not when there are no other scripture testifying plainly otherwise?
We are to give thanks and prayer to the Father, in name of Jesus!
I have at times, say talking with cultists, prayed for the Holy Spirit to open their eyes and help me discuss with them!
Hark
Well-Known Member
Since the Holy Spirit is doing the will of the Father, then pray to the Father in Jesus's name to have their eyes open. Then when Jesus thru the Holy Spirit in them, open their eyes, you can give the father thanks in Jesus's name.
If referring to non-Christian cults, then pray to the Father in Jesus's name to draw the unto the Son to reveal His Son to them to be saved. Then they shall receive the Holy Spirit at their salvation & be able to understand His words by Jesus Christ & they may give the Father thanks in Jesus's name.
The Holy Spirit is God, so not a sin to pray to and ask Him to do something!
Hark
Well-Known Member
It is when it is only the only Mediator that answers the prayer so the Father can be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV
You have no scripture testifying to anyone praying TO the Holy Spirit because that is not His job to answer prayers.
He is God & whatever He does when Jesus answers the prayers, the Holy Spirit gives the credit & glory to the Son.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not say that the Spirit would not talk about Himself. Neither did Jesus say that the Spirit would always only glorify Christ and never glorify Himself.
Consider that the Spirit inspired Luke to record profoundly that the Spirit repeatedly spoke about Himself and glorified Himself:
(1) The Spirit did not have Luke write that Ananias lied to Christ. He directed him to write that he lied to the Spirit.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
(2) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ caught away Philip. He directed Luke to write that the Spirit did so.
Acts 8:39-40 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
(3) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ was the One who spoke to Peter and directed him about what to do; He directed Luke to write that the Spirit spoke to Peter to direct him.
Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Acts 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
(4) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ was the One who directed the church at Antioch about what they were to do; He directed Luke to write that the Spirit directed them.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(5) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ was the One who directed the Jerusalem Council about what they would decree to believers everywhere; He directed Luke to write that the Spirit was the One who directed the Council.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(6) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ was the One who directed Paul and others about where they could not go; He directed Luke to write that the Spirit was the One who did so.
Acts 16:6-7 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
(7) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that Christ was the One who told Paul in every city what he was going to experience in every city; He directed Luke to write that it was the Spirit who did so.
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
(8) The Spirit did not inspire Luke to write that it was Christ who made people overseers over churches; He directed Luke to write that the Spirit was the One who did so.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
The Spirit has spoken about Himself many times in Scripture, and He has glorified Himself in many ways in Scripture.
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Seeing how the Holy Spirit is not really speaking but speaks what He hears, such references should be understood in that way for how the prophets spoke & for how the scripture comes about when those words were not coming directly from Himself. When the disciples speak or had written, they were inspired by the Holy Ghost to signify how they were speaking & writing as in.. not their own words but by the Spirit of God. That said.. Spirit of Someone testifies the words yet still, coming from Someone Else, even if the Holy Spirit is God, as what He speaks are not His own words, but words from Another & so the gory of those words from Another.. goes to the "Another".
Jesus did say what defines a false witness from a true witness, even for Himself.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. KJV
So that also applies to how the Holy Spirit witnesses thru us.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. KJV
Note what a disciple of Jesus Christ is supposed to do when bearing witness of Jesus Christ as the example was set by John the Baptist on witnessing in preparing the way for Him as being that prophesied voice in the wilderness.
John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. ~ KJV
So a true witness is not to speak of himself in seeking his own glory since the witness is to decrease so that He may increase. How is that rightly dividing the word of truth? Jesus said so plainly here in regards to how men witnesses.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. KJV
There is no unrighteousness within God. The Holy Spirit has been sent to do a job of withnessing of the Son in seeking His glory so how can He do that except thru us?
When you are witnessing by yourself or worshiping God by yourself, the only way your witness in ministry & worship can be true if the Spirit's witnessing with you for why those who are led by the Spirit are to honor the Son in worship if they wish to honor the Father at the same time. That is the Holy Spirit fulfilling His role for what He has been and still is sent for in bearing witness of the Son in seeking His glory.
John 8: 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. KJV
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. ~ KJV
At one time I had thought that verse 13 in the bold was in regards to how the Holy Spirit witnesses not about Himself, but the Lord corrected me in that He was meaning how the Holy Spirit speak as in how He does not speak His own words as coming directly from Himself, and that verses 14-15 is about how He ministers per the Head of the Church, the body of believers for why everything the Holy Spirit does, the credit & glory goes to Jesus Christ.
That means all the words of the Spirit, all the gifts of the Spirit, & all the fruits of the Spirit are ministered with the understanding of the scripture as a whole in aligning all the truths in His words that they come from Jesus Christ for why Jesus gets the credit & glory for all the Holy Spirit does which automatically goes to the glory of God the Father.
So the Holy Spirit in us is not going to lead believers to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory. That false notion was introduced to the churches by the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. that hyped a lot of titles on the Holy Spirit which should have been given to the Son before introducing the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.
There are no scripture testifying to that is how God wants us to practice in that way, but there are plenty of scripture focusing on the Son in worship for how God the Father wants to be glorified by in approaching Him in worship, anywhere, by.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJV
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. KJV
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. KJV
There are no scripture opposing the plainness of meaning here for why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned as another way to come to God the Father by or as another way to honor the Father in worship by. John 14:6, John 10:1 & John 5:22-23 is why there are no scripture teaching the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son even though He is God also and that is because the Holy Spirit is to serve as a perfect Witness thru us in testifying of the Son in seeking His glory.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
A reminder of the Trinity portion of the Atanasian Creed seemed beneficial at this point in the discussion:
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
Hark
Well-Known Member
That is the problem. There is no scripture testifying to the glory of the Trinity in how God as a whole is glorified by.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not called the gospel of the Trinity. All invitations to salvation is to the Son. It is the same invitations on how to come to the Father for anything & that is by only way of the Son.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJV
I am applying the plainness of His words for what He meant as that emphatic "but" signifies the Son as the only way to come to God the Father by. Note how there is no scripture nor Jesus saying you can come to God the father by way of the Holy Spirit also for then He would not say "but" in John 14:6 so I am taking Him that He meat what He has said
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Jesus did not say anywhere that we can honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit. We can read the plainness of His words that excludes the Holy Spirit as another way to honor God the Father is by how He says when he that honors not the Son, they are not honoring the Father in the latter part of verse 23.
Creeds are made by men & sometimes they have sayings in there not supported nor taught by scripture, thus going against the written scripture & thus not inspired by the Spirit of God. It is scripture we reprove by; not creeds established by men.
When you have to go to a creed rather than scripture to make your case, then you have to consider why the creed? Because you cannot find it in scripture.
The Holy Spirit is Himself God, so can talk to Him just as we would the Father and Jesus!
The Holy Spirit was not a celestial puppet just giving forth only what the father and Jesus said, but He Himself intervened and spoke and led!
Hark
Well-Known Member
Do you have scripture testifying to that plainly? But yet there are scripture reproving that which you say.
Whose will is to be done? The Father's will. That was seen in Jesus's prayer request in the Garden of Gethesmane to remove the cup from Him as in not to go through this torment of dying on the cross.
Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. KJV
He even taught us to pray to the Father signifying only His will be done.
Matthew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. KJV
So we need scripture to define the role of the Holy Spirt because even though He is God, it is the Father's will that shall be done.
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