Worship Wars?

[Ascetic X]

What fun is there being on a forum when you only have people who agree with you? I actually learn more when I happen to disagree with someone and I am forced to examine my position with additional scrutiny.

Just because we are argumentative at times does not make a conversation non-edifying! I do agree that we need to treat people here with respect though - even if they are a "Rank Heretic!"

Scripture More Accurately is obsessed with demons and their blood drums. Why is he posting about that all the time? No churches are using cannibalism drums, so his posts seem pointless.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Scripture More Accurately is obsessed with demons and their blood drums. Why is he posting about that all the time? No churches are using cannibalism drums, so his posts seem pointless.

Yeah, and now somebody got his feelings hurt! Too bad there is no "Ignore" button here so I can steer clear of those who are insistent upon being blissfully ignorant!

 

[JonC]

They are around and are becoming as "Traditionalist" about their drums and state of the art sound systems as the traditionalists were about their piano, organ, and hymnals.

I believe we should acknowledge and remember that which preceded us. We should break out the hymnals at times and "raise the rafters" singing some of the old-time hymns of the faith. We need to have enthusiasm from those sitting in the pews far more than the overly enthusiastic bass player who is "slappin and poppin", and pretty much steppin' all over everyone else's space!

Thanks for the reminder about the Psalms. I keep telling our Worship Pastor (yes, we have one) that I'd like to look at some of the old "Psalters" and perhaps arrange them for a more "contemporary" setting. Remember when it was all about the "Scriptures Songs?" Maranatha Music put several albums of really wonderful scripure songs! What happened to them? Seems to be nothing but "Jesus is my Boyfriend" songs these days.

I have been in churches without a piano but not because it was their choice not to have one. It was because no one in the congregation could play the piano they had sitting off in the corner collecting dust! It is usually "Feast or Famine" with church musicians these days. Musicians go where all the good musicians are and will likely never have opportunity to play while all the other churches have no instrumentalists or (worse yet) people who are "Church Volunteers" (not actual musicians) trying to play simply because the church and pastor feels obligated to have a worship team!

I would say that your average "Mega-Church" wouldn't know what to do if they blew out their state of the art sound system and therefore didn't have amplification! They'd probably have to either cancel or postpone their services!

I think most congregations that use contemporary worship also sing hymns - perhaps not with the eclectic music but the hymns themselves.

The weird thing is at one time our traditionsl hymns were contemporary and controversial (many viewing them as worldly and secular). It is interesting how things change with time.

I prefer "Christian volunteers" over more "professional" musicians. But I am speaking of simpler tunes with basic instruments (guitar, drums, maybe a keyboard). Last Sunday the church only had an acoustic guitar and a violin.

I believe the congregation itself should supply musicians from within the congregation. It should supply the pastor as well ("choose from among you").

 

[JonC]

Scripture More Accurately is obsessed with demons and their blood drums. Why is he posting about that all the time? No churches are using cannibalism drums, so his posts seem pointless.

Wait.... are you and @Armchair Apologist saying cannibalism blood drums are wrong??!!!

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I prefer "Christian volunteers" over more "professional" musicians. But I am speaking of simpler tunes with basic instruments (guitar, drums, maybe a keyboard). Last Sunday the church only had an acoustic guitar and a violin.

I believe the congregation itself should supply musicians from within the congregation. It should supply the pastor as well ("choose from among you").

I believe there is much to be said here which strikes at the heart of the matter. We are obsessed with complexity, with theatrics and polished performances to the point where we need to hire "professsional musicians" in order to pull it off! It matters not whether they believe or are living a life of holiness, they really know how to "shred" that guitar and that will pack the seats on Sunday! This is where I have become rather contemptuous of so-called "Modern Worship!"

What you are saying about "Simplicity" pretty much nails it. I am not there to show off to the congregation how great of a guitar player I am. I am a worship participant leading others to worship along with me. Complexities of arrangement often get in the way of the message of the song or hymn plus it often forces people to play above their ability which can bring disastrous results!

I recall back in the 80s and 90s when there were some really great anthems and choruses being sung (Rich Mullins "Awesome God," Jack Hayford's "Majesty," and all of those wonderful Maranatha! Music scripture songs and choruses) and the best thing was we were all singing out at the top of our lungs plus we remembered and sung them throughout the week! Something happened and I believe that modern worship music was well on its downward trajectory by the time I picked up my Stratocaster and went "Contemporary" back in 2003!

I am all for the congregation supplying its own musicians and if there are none in the congregation, perhaps the Lord is calling them to sing acapella for a while! Pastors ought to emerge from church congregations and not just "magically appear" from seminaries but I am content if we could just ensure the pastor is first and foremost a functional member of the church and not someone on the outer fringe who has been hired by a "Pulpit Committee."

 

[Ben1445]

Too bad there is no "Ignore" button here

Sorry if you were being sarcastic there but I will assume that you were not and tell you that there is. Under each posters name.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Sorry if you were being sarcastic there but I will assume that you were not and tell you that there is. Under each posters name.
View attachment 14142

Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Hopefully I haven't been obnoxious to the point where I may have made it to your "Ignore" list!

 

[kyredneck]

This thread, like almost all threads on the BB, are provocations to unnecessary contention.

ROFL! What do you think most are here for?

 

[JonC]

I believe there is much to be said here which strikes at the heart of the matter. We are obsessed with complexity, with theatrics and polished performances to the point where we need to hire "professsional musicians" in order to pull it off! It matters not whether they believe or are living a life of holiness, they really know how to "shred" that guitar and that will pack the seats on Sunday! This is where I have become rather contemptuous of so-called "Modern Worship!"

What you are saying about "Simplicity" pretty much nails it. I am not there to show off to the congregation how great of a guitar player I am. I am a worship participant leading others to worship along with me. Complexities of arrangement often get in the way of the message of the song or hymn plus it often forces people to play above their ability which can bring disastrous results!

I recall back in the 80s and 90s when there were some really great anthems and choruses being sung (Rich Mullins "Awesome God," Jack Hayford's "Majesty," and all of those wonderful Maranatha! Music scripture songs and choruses) and the best thing was we were all singing out at the top of our lungs plus we remembered and sung them throughout the week! Something happened and I believe that modern worship music was well on its downward trajectory by the time I picked up my Stratocaster and went "Contemporary" back in 2003!

I am all for the congregation supplying its own musicians and if there are none in the congregation, perhaps the Lord is calling them to sing acapella for a while! Pastors ought to emerge from church congregations and not just "magically appear" from seminaries but I am content if we could just ensure the pastor is first and foremost a functional member of the church and not someone on the outer fringe who has been hired by a "Pulpit Committee."

My son plays the drums (not blood drums). Congregation members who played taught him.

I think that church in Sedona used what they had (no paino or organ, but a few who played an instrument).

I would not be opposed to no instrumentls if nobody played. Or maybe a backup CD. As long as I am not singing solo, I don't care too much.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

As long as I am not singing solo, I don't care too much.

I agree 100%! If I am leading singing in our church and only hear myself, there is a big problem that ought to be addressed. And yes, I also prefer that my voice be mixed in with the multitude of the congregation!

But the scriptures do say "Joyful Noise" so as long as you are singing off-key in a joyous manner...

 

[jakethebaptist]

My son plays the drums (not blood drums). Congregation members who played taught him.

I think that church in Sedona used what they had (no paino or organ, but a few who played an instrument).

I would not be opposed to no instrumentls if nobody played. Or maybe a backup CD. As long as I am not singing solo, I don't care too much.

A small church I served as Interim pastor a couple years ago used recorded music, as they had no one to play instruments. One Sunday they had some technical difficulties, so they just sang "a capella." The congregational singing during that time was significantly more robust and enthusiastic!

 

[JonC]

A small church I served as Interim pastor a couple years ago used recorded music, as they had no one to play instruments. One Sunday they had some technical difficulties, so they just sang "a capella." The congregational singing during that time was significantly more robust and enthusiastic!

A capella can be more enthusiastic (especially if due to technical issues).

I am not opposed to churches using recorded music, but I love it when members worship God by playing instruments. There is just something about these worship elements coming together.

 

[Keith Mullins]

An interesting note after reading through the thread is that most who don't like the contemporary worship music isn't actually disagreeing with the music as they are about how it is done.

Also, don't confuse modern worship music with CCM and KLove. There is a huge difference.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I came upon this interesting quotation from the Confessions of Augustine of Hippo today:
'I am more led to put forward the opinion (not as an irrevocable view) that the custom of singing in church is to be approved, so that through the delights of the ear the weaker mind may rise up to the devotion of worship.
Yet when it happens to me tht the music moves me more than the subject of the song, I confess myself to commit a sin deserving punishment, and then I would prefer not to have heard the singer.'
[This seems to suggest that Augustine was listening to a singer rather than joining in congregational worship, but the principle seems to hold good. The music is there to draw our hearts towards Christ. If it is the music that moves us more than the contemplation of the Lord Jesus in the song/hymn, then the music is not doing its job]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A small church I served as Interim pastor a couple years ago used recorded music, as they had no one to play instruments. One Sunday they had some technical difficulties, so they just sang "a capella." The congregational singing during that time was significantly more robust and enthusiastic!

Yes. I think we might be blessed if we sang a capella more often - so long as there is someone handy who can pitch the key!

 

[Salty]

Andcyes, youvare correct. There are many many many songs that are sung in worship that should not be sung there

Some are even downright heretical

Examples
Songs about American
Armed Forces Songs
Songs which dont specifically ascribe to God All Glory Laud and Honor (see what I did there)

Thats a start

And no, your “new song that you wrote doesnt matter”

This sounds like a good discussion of its own -
Thus I have started a new thread

 

[Salty]

IMHO - The worship leader is the Senior pastor

The guy that leads the music is the music leader.

WHY - because worship is much more than JUST music!

 

[JonC]

IMHO - The worship leader is the Senior pastor

The guy that leads the music is the music leader.

WHY - because worship is much more than JUST music!

I think it depends on the pastor. They should be. But I have seen some who just give sermons and worship is much much more than sermons.

 

[Salty]

I think it depends on the pastor. They should be. But I have seen some who just give sermons and worship is much much more than sermons.

YES - Worship is the singing, announcements, offering, prayer time, and the crux of the service is the message.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

IMHO - The worship leader is the Senior pastor

The guy that leads the music is the music leader.

WHY - because worship is much more than JUST music!

Actually, I believe the term "Worship Leader" is a fluidic position if you really think about it.

Shouldn't the leading of worship be synonymous with "Instigating" worship? How then do we "instigate" (provoke) worship? Consider these examples:

When someone gives a testimony or "praise report"

When someone prays audibly and publicly and what they are praying strikes to the heart of those who are praying with them

When someone sings a "Special" and it stirs something within you causing you to raise your hands to the Lord

When a message is being preached (Bible study, Sunday School, Devotional, etc.) and the Holy Spirit stirs and convicts hearts, call to action, etc.

The pastor is most certainly a "Spiritual Leader" of the congregation and as a leader, he will certainly "lead" worship at times