Worship

[Michael Wrenn]

In the Baptist section, I started a thread on the Baptist distinctives I would miss most if I joined another denomination.

Here I want to discuss what I miss most from the Episcopal Church -- worship and liturgy.

What should worship consist of? Doesn't worship in Baptist and evangelical churches lack something? Shouldn't worship be more than a few hymns, someone "leading in prayer", a sermon, and a closing hymn? What about the mystery, awe, and beauty that should be experienced by being in God's presence as a community?

In short, I find the typical evangelical worship sadly lacking.

 

[annsni]

In the Baptist section, I started a thread on the Baptist distinctives I would miss most if I joined another denomination.

Here I want to discuss what I miss most from the Episcopal Church -- worship and liturgy.

What should worship consist of? Doesn't worship in Baptist and evangelical churches lack something? Shouldn't worship be more than a few hymns, someone "leading in prayer", a sermon, and a closing hymn? What about the mystery, awe, and beauty that should be experienced by being in God's presence as a community?

In short, I find the typical evangelical worship sadly lacking.

Show me from Scripture just what worship should be.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Show me from Scripture just what worship should be.

What about silence and quiet time before the Presence of God? What about the beauty of God's creation reflected in worship? What about a sense of being in the presence of holiness, and kneeling to reflect that? What about the congregation praying together like they sing together? What about a sense of reverence instead of feeling and acting like you're at a social club? How about a sense of Jesus as Holy Lord and God instead of your pal? How about a sense of wonder and mystery instead of rationalism or emotionalism?

Some people think liturgy takes away from worship, making it dry and formal; I find that it does just the opposite. Instead, I find much of evangelical worship uninspiring and lacking.

 

[annsni]

* What about silence and quiet time before the Presence of God?

* What about the beauty of God's creation reflected in worship?

* What about a sense of being in the presence of holiness, and kneeling to reflect that?

* What about the congregation praying together like they sing together?

* What about a sense of reverence instead of feeling and acting like you're at a social club?

* How about a sense of Jesus as Holy Lord and God instead of your pal?

* How about a sense of wonder and mystery instead of rationalism or emotionalism?

OK - I put each of these as bullet points to be able to organize it better. Now do you have a Scriptural mandate for each of these for corporate worship?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

OK - I put each of these as bullet points to be able to organize it better. Now do you have a Scriptural mandate for each of these for corporate worship?

"Mandate"? That's the wrong word. How about a preference for what best glorifies and represents God?

Do you have a scriptural "mandate" for the typical evangelical worship?

And I am not trying to be confrontational.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

OK - I put each of these as bullet points to be able to organize it better. Now do you have a Scriptural mandate for each of these for corporate worship?

(raising hand) ooo! ooo! Mr. Carter (showing my age)! I do.

Psalm 46:10
Psalm 148:1-14
Psalm 16:11
Acts 2:42 and Romans 15:5-6
Hebrews 12:28
Exodus 3:5
Is. 9:6
Certainly scriptural! And encouraged to practice by scripture. BTW did you know Temple worship was liturgical?

 

[annsni]

Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!"

Psalm 148:1-14 "Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights!
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his hosts!
3 Praise him, sun and moon,
praise him, all you shining stars!
4 Praise him, you highest heavens,
and you waters above the heavens!
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord!
For he commanded and they were created.
6 And he established them forever and ever;
he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away.[a]
7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
you great sea creatures and all deeps,
8 fire and hail, snow and mist,
stormy wind fulfilling his word!
9 Mountains and all hills,
fruit trees and all cedars!
10 Beasts and all livestock,
creeping things and flying birds!
11 Kings of the earth and all peoples,
princes and all rulers of the earth!
12 Young men and maidens together,
old men and children!
13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for his name alone is exalted;
his majesty is above earth and heaven.
14 He has raised up a horn for his people,
praise for all his saints,
for the people of Israel who are near to him.
Praise the Lord!"


Psalm 16:11 "You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore."


Acts 2:42 "And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."

and Romans 15:5-6 "May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Hebrews 12:28 " Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,"


Exodus 3:5 "Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”"


Is. 9:6 "For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon[a] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."


** OK, so we see with the Acts verse, that the early believers met together for teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer. That is what we do in church today. None of the other Scriptures are mandates for what we should do in the corporate service. We do see Paul giving instructions as well - regarding speaking in tongues, women, etc.

Certainly scriptural! And encouraged to practice by scripture. BTW did you know Temple worship was liturgical?

What is certainly scriptural and encouraged to practice by scripture? Use nature to worship God? To everyone pray out loud written prayers?

BTW - Did you know that we no longer worship in the temple?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It also just occured to me that when Paul was speaking to the Corinthians said

But all things should be done decently and in order

that requirement is certainly better met by liturgical worship rather than not.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

BTW - Did you know that we no longer worship in the temple?

This is true. But I don't see anywhere in scripture that we are not to have liturgy. Did you know that Jewish Synagogues in Chist time worshipped by liturgy?

Did you know that liturgy is referrenced to in NT?

Did you know they made rote proclimations of faith called Doxologies in the NT?

And each of those verses point out how we are to approach God. And any method discussed in scripture on ones approach to God is considered required isn't it?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!"

Psalm 148:1-14 "Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights!
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his hosts!
3 Praise him, sun and moon,
praise him, all you shining stars!
4 Praise him, you highest heavens,
and you waters above the heavens!
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord!
For he commanded and they were created.
6 And he established them forever and ever;
he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away.[a]
7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
you great sea creatures and all deeps,
8 fire and hail, snow and mist,
stormy wind fulfilling his word!
9 Mountains and all hills,
fruit trees and all cedars!
10 Beasts and all livestock,
creeping things and flying birds!
11 Kings of the earth and all peoples,
princes and all rulers of the earth!
12 Young men and maidens together,
old men and children!
13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for his name alone is exalted;
his majesty is above earth and heaven.
14 He has raised up a horn for his people,
praise for all his saints,
for the people of Israel who are near to him.
Praise the Lord!"


Psalm 16:11 "You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore."


Acts 2:42 "And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."

and Romans 15:5-6 "May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Hebrews 12:28 " Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,"


Exodus 3:5 "Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”"


Is. 9:6 "For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon[a] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."


** OK, so we see with the Acts verse, that the early believers met together for teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer. That is what we do in church today. None of the other Scriptures are mandates for what we should do in the corporate service. We do see Paul giving instructions as well - regarding speaking in tongues, women, etc.




What is certainly scriptural and encouraged to practice by scripture? Use nature to worship God? To everyone pray out loud written prayers?

BTW - Did you know that we no longer worship in the temple?

I still want to see your "scriptural mandate" for the typical evangelical worship.

Oh, and there is evidence that the earliest churches had the Lord's Supper every Lord's Day. So, why don't evangelicals do that? The only ones I know who do are the Churches of Christ.

 

[Gina B]

I do feel something is missing in Baptist churches. So much so that I attend another church along with my Baptist one. Call it supplemental worship?

The one I attend does have liturgy and more of a basis is what is likely closer to what the original worship may have been like. Reciting blessings, scripture, there are also praises, dancing, shouts of joy, times of quietness...much more spirit led than people led. There's no sense that there's a "stage" and those that play music are in the background, not front and center to help with the focus being on the words.

The combination of both places is a blessing for me. I gain spiritually from the uniqueness of both places and how the message is taught. If one doesn't word it in a way I get, the other one will.

It's also an interested social observation in how humans act/interact with worship in different scenarios. For example, in the one place, it seems very united in that if a song brings forth joy, there is clapping and shouting, where in the other, a song may bring forth joy, but people are looking around to see what everyone else is doing, sometimes one person may start clapping their hands or raise their arms and everyone looks around as if to see if lightening will strike, occasionally a few others will join in and that's about as emotive as anyone dares to get. I should start taking notes on this stuff. LOL It definitely does make one think about worship and how we do it!

 

[annsni]

I still want to see your "scriptural mandate" for the typical evangelical worship.

It is right there in Acts 2. The only thing we add that is not there is song. But I don't see any rote prayer, kneeling or nature involed.

Oh, and there is evidence that the earliest churches had the Lord's Supper every Lord's Day. So, why don't evangelicals do that? The only ones I know who do are the Churches of Christ.

"there is evidence" is not Scriptural. Jesus told us "as often as you do this" - which is not a directive of how often to do it.

 

[billwald]

>Here I want to discuss what I miss most from the Episcopal Church -- worship and liturgy.

AMEN! If I quit my church I may go to Sunday Compline at St Marks in Seattle.

http://www.complinechoir.org/

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm not really at this point advocating for one worship style over another as I have been blessed by both systems. But I will recount an episode I had at basic training in the Air Force.

At Lackland on Sundays you inform your Training Instructor what faith service you want to attend. I told him I wanted to attend the protestant service at the chapel there. Since it was a non-denominational service is was a hodgepodge of things going on and it was very chaotic and to be honest it seemed very disrespectful to God because of some of the craziness going on. I didn't think anyone actually cared for God but wanted an outlet for their stress during basic. It just seemed so disrespectful! So, there are times contemplation require the environment where that can flurish. Not to mention the sermon was lousy!

 

[saturneptune]

Every local church can decide their own order of worship. The central idea is to praise and worship the Lord. That can be through song (contemporary or traditional), Scripture reading, sermons, testimonies, prayer, moment of silence, creeds (as long as they are Scriptural), giving, and life changing decisions. There is no right or wrong about any style. A worship service should incorporate the two ordinances in some fashion. If one disagrees with the way a church worships, there is always another church.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It is right there in Acts 2. The only thing we add that is not there is song. But I don't see any rote prayer, kneeling or nature involed.



"there is evidence" is not Scriptural. Jesus told us "as often as you do this" - which is not a directive of how often to do it.

It's funny how literalists dismiss something if it's not written in the Bible, even if it was a practice done by the earliest Christians. So, tell me, do you drive to church in your car, or do you walk?

In NT times -- you know, before and during the time when the books were being written -- communion was done every Sunday.

 

[annsni]

It's funny how literalists dismiss something if it's not written in the Bible, even if it was a practice done by the earliest Christians. So, tell me, do you drive to church in your car, or do you walk?

We can add to it but we can't say what we add to it is mandatory.

In NT times -- you know, before and during the time when the books were being written -- communion was done every Sunday.

Good for them! Jesus just said "as often as you drink this" and "eat this" - and so we do.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Every local church can decide their own order of worship. The central idea is to praise and worship the Lord. That can be through song (contemporary or traditional), Scripture reading, sermons, testimonies, prayer, moment of silence, creeds (as long as they are Scriptural), giving, and life changing decisions. There is no right or wrong about any style. A worship service should incorporate the two ordinances in some fashion. If one disagrees with the way a church worships, there is always another church.

Of course I agree with you on that.

I just wonder why Baptists and evangelicals don't use more liturgy. Is it because they fear it is too "Catholic"?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

We can add to it but we can't say what we add to it is mandatory.



Good for them! Jesus just said "as often as you drink this" and "eat this" - and so we do.

I was just trying to show how an extreme literalism can be harmful. For instance, the CoC and PBs use that principle of interpretation to exclude musical instruments from worship.

 

[annsni]

I was just trying to show how an extreme literalism can be harmful. For instance, the CoC and PBs use that principle of interpretation to exclude musical instruments from worship.

Yep - But I'm not being a strict literalist. It seems from your posts here that you are condemning those who don't worship like you do and so I figured it MUST be fully Biblically based if we must do it that way.

I personally don't like liturgical kind of worship. It reminds me way too much of the dark time I was in the Catholic church. Instead, I love the freedom to worship the Lord with my whole spirit in our church service. If I were to go into a liturgical church, I honestly begin to feel sick. I don't know why but I do.