Would Baptists even exist without Catholicism?

[Glen Seeker]

DHK,

Redemptor, Redemptrix, one is male one female.

If you lead a person to Christ, are you not a "helper" in that person's redemption? That makes you a "co-redeemer" of that person's soul.

In the same way, I came back to Jesus through the intercession of Mary.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

9 page warning, kids. As is the custom of this forum, we will close this topic at page 10.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[Australian Baptist Student]

Dear Pauline,
you sent me to my library doing research, but without a lot of sucsess so far. Hope you can help. What is "ordinary magesterium"? What things does it cover, and how authoratative is it?
The internet also had some sites, but none seemed to list the stuff I just asked for.
All the best, Colin

 

[Eric B]

If you lead a person to Christ, are you not a "helper" in that person's redemption? That makes you a "co-redeemer" of that person's soul.
In the same way, I came back to Jesus through the intercession of Mary.

Not in any biblical sense. Christ is the only one who dies on a cross to pay for people's sins (i.e. "redeem") so to claim anyone else is "co-redeemer" robs Him of His glory. We are not even "helping" in their redemption. (We then would get glory in people's salvation). And Mary is not being proposed to be co-redemptrix in this same sense, but rather in the unique sense I describe above, where she gets glory due only to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is the way she has been venerated for centuries, so why else would they would proclaim her co-redemptrix only now, if she has led people to Christ all these ages.
Besides, there is nowhere in the Bible where Mary or any other dead saints intercede for people let alone lade them to Christ. Christ is the only mediator.

[ May 28, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Glen Seeker:

In the same way, I came back to Jesus through the intercession of Mary.

No one comes to Jesus through the intercession of Mary. Mary is dead. Do you practice necromancy, a practice worthy of stoning in the Old Testament? If you came to Jesus through Mary, it was not Mary, but a demon-inspired caricature of Mary. Mary's body is still in the grave today. Her soul is in Heaven. She has no more ability to interceed for you than she does for the devil. Our intercessor is Christ. "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." No one can take His place. To say that Mary can or has is blasphemous.
DHK

 

[hph]

"To the church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principals , including those pertaining to the social order , and to make judgements on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls." "The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are....endowed with the authority of CHRIST..." pg.491 Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)
"OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION""Hence they could not be saved who , knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ , would refuse either to enter it or remain in it" pg.224(CCC)
"Jesus can have but one spouse . and his spouse IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH" Pillar of Fire , Pillar of Truth (NIHIL OBSTAT) pg.4
"These beliefs include...the forgiveness of sins THROUGH A PRIEST..."PFPT pg.6
"Baptism is necessary for salvation"(CCC)pg.320
"ONLY the catholic church can baptise"(CCC)pg.320
"With respect to children who have died without baptism , the liturgy of the church invites us to trust in Gods mercy and to pray for their salvation"(CCC)pg.325

CARDINAL HOSIUS , a catholic dignitary , spokethese words at the Council of Trent , AD.1554:"If the truth of a religion were to be judged by the readiness and cheerfulness which a man of any sect shows in suffering , then the opnions and persuasions of no sect can be truer or surer than those of the Ana-Baptist(Baptist); since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past that have been more grievously punished."
"We declare , state and define that it is absolutely necassary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff(Pope)"Pope Boniface VIII,Bull Unun Sanctum,1302
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils;speaking lies in hypocrisy...FORBIDDING TO MARRY,and commanding to abstain from MEATS" 1Tim.4:1-3
"Through her(Mary)are obtained .. ALL SALVATION,..we obtain everything through Mary"Pius IX,Ubi Primum,1849
THE APOCRYPHA( books added to the catholic bible) wasn't sacred until 1546!Council of Trent
"The children gather wood,and the fathers kindle the fire,and the women kned their dough,to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger."Jer.7:18
EVER HEAR OF THE PRAYER TO MARY , QUEEN OF HEAVEN?
The RCC is a false religion need we go futher?

 

[CatholicConvert]

We are not even "helping" in their redemption. (We then would get glory in people's salvation).

I almost died laughing when I read this. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times as a Fundamentalist I heard men gettin' HEAPS 'N HEAPS 'O GLORY for being "GREAAAAAAAAT SOUL WINNAHS!! Man, these guys were so lifted up at some of these soul winnin' conventions that I often wonder in retrospect how they could carry their heads around without a wheelbarrow!!

You KNOW what I am saying rings of truth!!

DHK --

The Blessed Virgin is not dead. As with all those who are in Christ, she is quite alive, more so than we are here on this earth. All in Christ are alive in a way that is real, true, and beyond our meager understanding.

Secondly, WHERE, pray tell, is her grave? You know full well how we Catholics love our brothers and sisters who have lived exemplary lives and tend to make a rather huge fuss over their graves. Now if the Mother of God were buried on earth somewhere here, doesn't it seem that we heretics would have at least built a church over her grave as was done with St. Peter?

So where is the grave, please?

hph -- The pagans copied the truth which was revealed and put their own false gods to it.

Example: the worship of Seramis and Nimrod, spoken of in Genesis and mentioned in THE TWO BABYLONS and other anti-Catholic trash.

WHERE and HOW do you think they got the idea for such a thing? Out of the clear blue? Or did it perhaps come from the Protoevangelium of Genesis 3 in which a man/redeemer, a seed of the woman, was promised to mankind? Do you not think that this good news, given to Eve, was passed down from generation to generation in expectation? That the pagans took this truth and bent it to their own false gods does not invalidate it at all.

If what you are saying is true, then you are not allowed to believe in Christ or the Blessed Trinity. There were 13 "crucifed saviors" of paganism which were believed in thousands of years before Christ. Does that make Him false?

There were triadic gods worshipped by the pagans before the Trinity was even defined by the Church. Again, does that make it false.

You better think this through.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The statement could be made that Baptists exist in spite of the catholic church.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

The Blessed Virgin is not dead. As with all those who are in Christ, she is quite alive, more so than we are here on this earth. All in Christ are alive in a way that is real, true, and beyond our meager understanding.

Secondly, WHERE, pray tell, is her grave? You know full well how we Catholics love our brothers and sisters who have lived exemplary lives and tend to make a rather huge fuss over their graves. Now if the Mother of God were buried on earth somewhere here, doesn't it seem that we heretics would have at least built a church over her grave as was done with St. Peter?

So where is the grave, please?

You do not know where the graves of many of the apostles are, and many other of the New Testament saints of that era. And why should you? Neither do you have any proof, Biblical or otherwise that Mary was assumed into Heaven bodily. The resurrection has not taken place yet. The Bible records only two individuals who did not meet death as such, and that was Elijah and Enoch. Everyone else, (except for those who will be raptured) will meet death and wait for the resurrection. And that includes Mary. SHE IS DEAD! Only her soul lives on in Heaven. It is fruitless to pray to a dead person. The practice is known as necromancy. That is what Saul did when he went to the witch of endor. He desired to speak with Samuel. He could only do this through a witch. You desire to speak to Mary, just like witches (necromancers) communicate with the dead.

Concerning this "Mother of God" business, God never had a mother, and you know that very well.
Why do you insist to believe this foolishness that the Roman Catholic Church perpetuaties?

Col.1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Rev.1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Mary is not, was not an eternal being. She was born into this world like you and I. Christ is eternal. He is the creator of this universe; He is God Almighty; He has no mother. Give up this nonsense. God has no mother!

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus Christ came to this earth in human flesh. He took upon himself the form of a man. Mary was used of God for that purpose. She is not the eternal mother of God. She was used of God to be the earthly mother of Jesus.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

I cannot begin to tell you the number of times as a Fundamentalist I heard men gettin' HEAPS 'N HEAPS 'O GLORY for being "GREAAAAAAAAT SOUL WINNAHS!! Man, these guys were so lifted up at some of these soul winnin' conventions that I often wonder in retrospect how they could carry their heads around without a wheelbarrow!!

You are certainly right. But just because people like that may have done wrong does not justify saying that we should get glory in people's salvation as "redeemers" when Christ alone is the redeemer.

Secondly, WHERE, pray tell, is her grave? You know full well how we Catholics love our brothers and sisters who have lived exemplary lives and tend to make a rather huge fuss over their graves. Now if the Mother of God were buried on earth somewhere here, doesn't it seem that we heretics would have at least built a church over her grave as was done with St. Peter?

The fact that there is no grave of Mary enshrined proves that the early church did not venerate Mary as the later church did; and likewise, neither the apostles. The supposed locations associated with Christ were enshrined, but then the early church knew Christ is the only one who is supposed to receive such glory.

hph -- The pagans copied the truth which was revealed and put their own false gods to it.

Example: the worship of Seramis and Nimrod, spoken of in Genesis and mentioned in THE TWO BABYLONS and other anti-Catholic trash.

WHERE and HOW do you think they got the idea for such a thing? Out of the clear blue? Or did it perhaps come from the Protoevangelium of Genesis 3 in which a man/redeemer, a seed of the woman, was promised to mankind? Do you not think that this good news, given to Eve, was passed down from generation to generation in expectation? That the pagans took this truth and bent it to their own false gods does not invalidate it at all.

No one's arguing that the pagans didn't derive alot of their religion from this early revelation and corrupt it into idolatry. That is well known. But that does not mean everything they copied that can be associated with that is the truth or the way God demands to be worshipped. We must separate the truth from the corruption. Stuff like venerating Mary as the Queen of Heaven, forbidding marriage, prayer to the dead, etc. have to be proven from the true God's Word, and what we see instead is that these are the very things He condemns.

 

[CatholicConvert]

This might be the one which closes the thread.

Not the Mother of God, eh? Sorry, Jesus was God from the moment He was a single embryonic cell inside the Virgin. If there was one second that He was not, then He was never. You would then get into a heresy which would have a mere creature being promoted to godhood. Wrong choice, my man!! Jesus was God from cell number one, therefore, the BVM was the Mother of God.

Secondly, no one is saying that Mary is the eternal mother of God in the way you are setting forth. The eternal has no mother, but the Incarnate God certainly does. This phrase was began to be used around the time of the Arian heresy to protect His divinity. You should appreciate that.

Eric: "We must separate the truth from the corruption."

Yup. That is what the councils of the Church were held to do. The same men who canonized the Scriptures for Christianity were the same men who also venerated the Blessed Virgin and spoke highly of Her and Her role. Of course, the real issue is whether or not Christ would allow de jure corruption to enter the Church and run it. My Bible says no, so I trust that such statements are correct, and if I don't understand them, the problem is with me, not the teaching.

Now, since this probably wraps this up, come on over to the thread on the Covenant and the Catholic Faith and we can keep at this.



Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Eric B]

Secondly, no one is saying that Mary is the eternal mother of God in the way you are setting forth. The eternal has no mother, but the Incarnate God certainly does. This phrase was began to be used around the time of the Arian heresy to protect His divinity. You should appreciate that.

Since Jesus was both God and man, He has both human attributes and divine attributes, and the above confuses them. The person known as "The Incarnate God" had a mother, but it is the "incarnate" that was conceived and born, not "God", so "mother of God" (as well as "death of God", "blood of God", etc. are inaccurate expressions)

Yup. That is what the councils of the Church were held to do. The same men who canonized the Scriptures for Christianity were the same men who also venerated the Blessed Virgin and spoke highly of Her and Her role. Of course, the real issue is whether or not Christ would allow de jure corruption to enter the Church and run it. My Bible says no, so I trust that such statements are correct, and if I don't understand them, the problem is with me, not the teaching.

Still, those men in the councils were not perfect either, and this is the mistake people make. They may have officially "canonized" the Bible, but still, this was based largely on the body of texts that were agreed upon by the earlier church. God may have specifically guided them in selecting the final canon, and proof of this is the fact that there were many pther books circulating the promoted Catholic doctrines such as the perpetual virginity of Mary and other stuff that would have sealed the authority of these doctrines for good, yet they were restrained. Even the books known as the apocrypha retained a question mark to most. God protected His written Word through these men, but that does not mean that the rest of what they taught was right. Jesus and the apostles warned that corruption would come into the visible organization of the church, and warned Christians as individuals (the invisible Church) to avoid it.
As for an unbroken body going all the way back to the first century, I'll go with the Messianic congregations someone mentioned to me earlier. The Church at its heart was s simple fellowship, not a hierarchy or corporate system.

 

[DHK]

Brother Ed,
Eric has made some good points.
I think you have your logic backwards Ed. Jesus was not God from the moment He was a single embryonic cell inside the Virgin, He was and is God from all eternity. To say that Jesus was never God is heresy. An eternal God can never have a mother, period. You said it yourself, "The eternal has no mother." Now be consistent. "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." He is eternal. Mary is not. Mary was simply a vessel used by God in a time and place in history, about 2000 years ago when God, as man came into this world. She was used of God in a special way. She in no way is the mother of God. God cannot have a mother. God is eternal. Mary is dead. She still awaits the resurrection of her body. It is pretty hard to be a mother without a body, isn't it?
DHK

 

[Kiffin]

I have no problem with the term "Mother of God". The term was originally not used to glorify Mary but has it's origin at Chalcedon in defense of the Deity of Christ and also that He was man (not a spirit) and was used against the Arians. Let's be honest, Mary was the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God. So in that context, Mary is the Mother of God (just not a co-redeemer or Queen of Heaven as my RCC friends try to make her ).

[ May 30, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kiffin:
I have no problem with the term "Mother of God". The term was originally not used to glorify Mary but has it's origin at Chalcedon in defense of the Deity of Christ and also that He was man (not a spirit) and was used against the Arians. Let's be honest, Mary was the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

So where does it all stop. The Catholics take it further. By extenstion, St. Anne becomes the grandmother of God. Where does it stop?
http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/cabana/3953/99/ste_anne.html
DHK

 

[Kiffin]

DHK,

I appreciate your zeal for truth and your stand for the faith. I do not believe we react by going to an opposite extreme. "The Mother of God" was originaly meant to testify that Christ received His humanity from Mary. There have been groups in the past that have stated Jesus did not receive His flesh from Mary but had a Celestial flesh. Such a teaching denies Christ was truly human and is just as heretical as calling Mary a CoRedeemer. Mary was the Godbearer and was Jesus mother. I hold to it's original meaning and we should not allow the RCC to steal the term.

I agree with 99% of what you said and I do understand how many can distort the term.

God Bless

[ May 30, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[hph]

well,I think theres room for a little more.Would baptist exist without RCC?I think so since it was around before RCC.As I said before RCC is a man made cult of religion that gives people a form of Godliness.They deny salvation by grace alone,which dosn't comply with scripture.They deny the authority of the scripture 2tim.3:16.They forbid to marry,and abstain from meat(on friday usually).The bow before objects or idols.They controol their people by religon "fear" controol.They added books to scripture that contradict scripture long after the bible was complete.Why is it so hard to see? RCC is , without a doubt a wolf in sheeps clothing, a church of satan appearing as an angel of light.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Page 10...topic closed.

Joseph Botwinick
Moderator