Would most people consider IFB churches anti-government and anti-modern medicine?

[Phillip]

I've never met any IFB churches who are against modern meds. There have been a few that I have known of that might be thot of as anti-government, but many of those are momre anti-gov't than they are IFB.

I am for modern medicines. Just because the greek word is transliterated as pharmacy doesn't mean that medicinal drug use is witchcraft.

Maybe putting this together with your other thread about not being able to get a church to give you experience makes more sense now.

I have been visiting my daughter's fundamentalist Baptist church and I know the preacher is on blood pressure and possibly diabetes medicine. He is about as conservative as you can get. but I can say one thing for the man, he may have a few minor things I don't agree with, He is a man of God and puts his trust in God. All basic doctrinal theologies that are not spelled out in the Bible and added by man in denominations are ignored, but if its in the Bible it is followed strictly by Him. I have no problem with the man and He is a STRONG preacher who tends his flock.

 

[rbell]

The facts are the facts whether you may have researched them or not. I thank God for emergency medicine, but after being a medical student, I do not thank him for pharmaceutical companies.

How safe are prescription drugs?

In 1998 an extensive study published in the reputable Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) showed that 106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects (4).

The reported adverse effects of drugs are only the tip of the iceberg....
http://www.healingdaily.com/conditions/pharmaceutical-companies-2.htm

So yes, we are hear primarily to preach the Gospel and disciple the saved but we are also here to expose evil and warn others about it and its danger.

Wow...this almost gets funny after a while.

OK...basis statistical analysis here: you cannot honestly talk about "deaths from medicine" unless you consider the flip side--and that is, "who would have died without the medicine?Of course, that is not even addressed in your post. Surprise, surprise. But if statistics are on your side, then you shouldn't fear them. So try again...but this time, let's be intellectually honest. You must ask the remainder of the question..."compared to what?" So maybe some do die because of side effects. But what if those deaths were due to side-effects of experimental cancer drugs on a terminal patient? Let's be real in this process here.

Now, secondly...Is this the best you have to prove the "evils" of pharmaceutical drugs?

Even though you credit modern medicine for your current health, I have no doubt that you could get the same if not better results with no side effects using natural herbs and vitamins with a healthy diet. Oh, and by the way we are told by Paul to, 1Th 5:21 "Prove (test) all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Wow. A couple of out-of-context verses? Come on...you can do better than that, can't you?

We will all be held accountable by God someday for the things done in the flesh.

Does that include providing incomplete or out-of-context information?

So yes, we are hear primarily to preach the Gospel and disciple the saved but we are also here to expose evil and warn others about it and its danger.

Wow. So taking medicine for illnesses and injury is "evil?"

Interesting viewpoint. Nutty, but interesting.

Many people have successfully cured their diabetes with natural medicine without any harm, just google it and I am sure you will find many reliable cases that verify this, my grandmothers sister is one example.

And many others have successfully managed their diabetes thanks to medications that in recent years have been a godsend for millions of people.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for good exercise, nutrition, etc. But if you've really got a medical background, you know that there are millions of people in this country who (even after taking care of themselves physically & nutritioinally), without pharmaceutical help for diabetes, will have serious (if not fatal) consequences. Let's be intellectually honest here. Your grandmother's sister notwithstanding.

 

[annsni]

Mar 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
Mar 5:26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

I was that woman. I was prayed for by the elders and by family. I was prayed for and anointed with oil by the elders. However, God chose to use medication to heal me after surgery for the issue. Just because people use medication doesn't mean they leave God.

You mention how many people die from medication complications. How many more lives are saved each year through medication? I'd guarantee is a quite larger number than what you mentioned. Let's put it this way: Why has life expectancy increased? Because of better medical care and medications.

 

[Jim1999]

In my lifetime, I have never heard of a person cured of diabetes. There are basically three types of diabetes: Type 1 from birth; type 2 onset, and : type 2 that develops temporarily by pregnancy. The latter is often finished with the pregnancy.

The former two stem from a deficiency in the pancreas, which cannot convert naturally and allows sugar imbalance. We control this with insulin shots, or drugs in the case of type 2. Some type 2 patients have brought their diabetes under control by weight loss, proper diet and exercise, so they no longer need either insulin shots or pills.......the diabetes is still there, but is under natural control.

Prior to insulin, the only treatment was direct dissolved sugar injections,,,,,,,sometimes it worked, but many died early on.

Further, many of the deaths reported from the reactions to drugs, have so many health problems that it would take a miracle in the first place to heal them. Some people will go to several doctors and not tells them what drugs they have tried.poor doctors are left in the cold.

My one daughter is a forensics pathologist. You should ask her about drugs, abuse and the people who died. Amazing how the statistics change.

Also, the drug companies spend millions developing drugs, testing them and trial runs before they earn a penny from sales.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

And then there's the opposite of diabetes - insulin resistance. In my case, my body makes too MUCH insulin and it doesn't realize that it's there so it keeps making more. This produces so many other issues such as weight gain, female cycle issues (excessive bleeding, ovarian cysts), higher risk of heart disease and such. However, thanks to glucophage, I no longer make too much insulin and because of that, my infertility has been healed, my weight has dropped to a healthier weight and I am decreasing my risk of heart disease and diabetes. Honestly, I thank God for this miracle drug. It truly IS a miracle drug in my case

 

[Bob Alkire]

I respect your right to be wrong on this issue.

I agree with my friend's remarks above.

 

[Living4God21]

Since this is a debate forum at this point, let me ask you to think about a few questions with an open mind, if you will allow...

Is your disease or that held by someone other than you caused by a lack of a particular medicine whether it be, prozac, clindamycin, insulin, Lisinopril, etc?

Do you really believe that our life spans are longer now than ever before, lets be honest with ourselves...to all those who wish to argue this point. Did not people in the Old Testament live to be 969, 930, 175 years old? Did they require these medications to live that long? What was their secret? Furthermore, I'll bet that they had a much higher quality of life because there were no side effects to deal with. I could debate this area all day long, but this is not my main objective, I just wanted to get an idea of what the modern day Baptist is thinking when it comes to these things.

If you want to claim that I am not looking at all sides, I have, I have been on both sides. It is my Biblical conviction that brought me to where I am today. Also, I am not 21 years old, I am 26 and have one beautiful healthy child and a wonderful wife all of which have been taken care of naturally without the use of drugs. Our child was born at home and has not been vaccinated by harmful substances that contain mercury, aluminum, and aborted baby (fetus) cells. If you do not believe me when I say this check it out for yourself! Learn the facts and then come back here and lets talk about it. Talk about an attack against God, how cruel it is to inject your child with poisonous substances that are toxic to the human body at the recommendation of a medical doctor (a mere man in a white coat!). We have taken our guard down too far as Christians and I believe that it is time to think things over again when it comes to medicine and the body!

 

[annsni]

Since this is a debate forum at this point, let me ask you to think about a few questions with an open mind, if you will allow...

Is your disease or that held by someone other than you caused by a lack of a particular medicine whether it be, prozac, clindamycin, insulin, Lisinopril, etc?

Mine is caused by a sinful rotting body. It's cause is diminished with medication.

My husband's is also caused by a sinful rotting body and he is SAVED by his medications.

Do you really believe that our life spans are longer now than ever before, lets be honest with ourselves...to all those who wish to argue this point. Did not people in the Old Testament live to be 969, 930, 175 years old? Did they require these medications to live that long? What was their secret? Furthermore, I'll bet that they had a much higher quality of life because there were no side effects to deal with. I could debate this area all day long, but this is not my main objective, I just wanted to get an idea of what the modern day Baptist is thinking when it comes to these things.

You DO realize we're talking a pre-flood and a post-flood world, right?? Pre-flood, people lived longer and once the flood came, age span decreased. Life expectancy at birth in ancient Greece was 20 years old. In 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was signed, life expectancy at birth was 23. Since the advent of modern medicine, life expectancy has increased dramatically. Just in the last century, life expectancy at brith has increased from 49 years to 77 years.

If you want to claim that I am not looking at all sides, I have, I have been on both sides. It is my Biblical conviction that brought me to where I am today. Also, I am not 21 years old, I am 26 and have one beautiful healthy child and a wonderful wife all of which have been taken care of naturally without the use of drugs. Our child was born at home and has not been vaccinated by harmful substances that contain mercury, aluminum, and aborted baby (fetus) cells. If you do not believe me when I say this check it out for yourself! Learn the facts and then come back here and lets talk about it. Talk about an attack against God, how cruel it is to inject your child with poisonous substances that are toxic to the human body at the recommendation of a medical doctor (a mere man in a white coat!). We have taken our guard down too far as Christians and I believe that it is time to think things over again when it comes to medicine and the body!

Thank God for many of those "poisonous substances" such as smallpox, polio and influenza. Additionally, most vaccines do not contain the substances you have posted. Pediatric vaccines have not contained mercury since 2003 (the year the last batch expired). Some adult vaccines still do contain thimerosal but they contain less mercury than you would get in a tuna sandwich.

I do agree we need to be educated but let's not be stupid throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Medicine has allowed infants to grow into children and children grow into adults and adults to have infants and watch them grow into adults. I thank God for giving us brains and wonderful substances in this world that we can use for our good.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I still have 20 years and 3 children on you.

Do paxil, lisonipril, etc cause disease? Of course not. As Ann has stated we have disease as a result of the fall. Medicine can only attempt to alieve the suffering.

Vaccines have saved thousands of lives, eradicated small pox from the face of the earth (good for me since I am immune to the vaccine), nearly eradicated polio. There are two sides to every story.

Yes, in my opinion, we give our very young children way to many vaccines, way to early. If you're wife is going to be a stay at home, homeschooling woman, then your baby has no need for certain of the vaccines they push on parents nowdays. But if your child is going to go to public school, you better reconsider. They will be exposed to a whole host of contagions.

You should take a walk through an older cemetary. One that has graves going back to around 1900. You will be amazed at the number of childrens graves you find. Vaccines are to blame for the dramatic drop in the childhood death rate from those years to now. Terrible thing that. We should just let all those kids die, because we fear an unproven side effect.

That's not to say that pharmaseudical companies couldn't improve on their products so that parents didn't have to fear even the chance that their child's body couldn't handle the effects of an element that is toxic in certain amounts to human beings. But, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Decisions as to which vaccines are beneficial to your child and which aren't are why God made you the parent! But to preach that I shouldn't give one oversteps your authority.

Now please don't tell me that you are one of those who denies that our bodies can fail to produce the proper chemistry to keep our brains running properly and that you believe that all mental illness is spiritual in nature. We don't live in the dark ages where epilepsy was considered demon possession, don't take us back there.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The folks I hang with are neither anti-government or anti modern medicine.

That being said, we do take an anti-sacralist position and we do have ethical problems with some areas of medical research.

By anti-sacralist, I mean we oppose the forcing of worship at the current idol in the public square. But this has been the position of New Testament Christians since the Early Church.

By ethical problems, I mean for example embryonic stem cell research.

 

[Jim1999]

Even the psalmist wrote: "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if my reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away." Psalm 90:10..oh, KJV.

Where goeth the 900 some odd years now, and it didn't take modernity and drugs, did it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Dr. Bob]

The greatest lie told today: "I'm from the Federal Government and I'm here to help".

That said, we pray for our nation, our leaders, our troops. We honor our King first and follow His commands.

And while we actively promote natural health and alternative remedies, we do believe that Western Medicine is good in its place.

We just try to keep out of its place as much as possible.

 

[Dale-c]

There is certainly room for debate over modern medicine. certainly many have side effects that you might think are as bad as the problem.
But to preach this stuff from the pulpit is most inapropriate.

The church is to proclaim the gospel, not social or political agendas.

 

[Tom Bryant]

We may be giving this more att'n than it's worth but here goes...

You mentioned Lisinopril, I'll defend it. It has helped me lower my blood pressure. I also lost 60 lbs BUT when I attempted to go off the pill, my blood pressure shot straight up again. I watch what I eat and keep my doctor happy with my weight, but without the medicine, I'd be in the danger range simply because of a fallen world and high blood pressure family history.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I am a medical student who is very open to natural alternatives to medications and has a close friend who is a naturopath who I respect greatly. One of the reasons for this is because of her recognition of the limitations of naturopathic medicine as well as her scientific background that acknowledges that modern western medicine with all its flaws still does a great deal of good. I would have no problems referring my patients to her.

However, I am very wary of naturopaths who paint a broad brush about the evil of modern medicine and claim to be able to cure difficult diseases like diabetes and cancer. They are dangerous and should be avoided like snake-oil salesmen for selling false hope among other things. Additionally, they taint the good reputation of legitimate naturopaths.

Of course, there are extremes in every profession, including the medical profession itself. The difficulty with professions like naturopathic medicine is the looser licencing requirements which in some places are non-existent.

 

[Jim1999]

In the early days, before national health in England, we couldn't afford health care and we went to the gypsies. One of the most popular medicines was vinegar. Amazing, innit. Vinegar, inhaled, is still one of the best "medicines" for sore throats, cuts and a few other things. Now don't for get the daily spoon of cod liver oil!

It is interesting that vinegar is one of the first "drugs" mentioned in the Old Testament.

As Gold Dragon mentioned, there is room for both kinds of treatments. Let common sense prevail. Not many years ago, the average general practioner didn't have a clue about diabetes. I think one doctor said that their whole learning about diabetes was just a few hours in a lecture out of the whole of their medical training.

So, let's find the balance we live our lives, and as some have said, It doesn't belong in the pulpit.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Salty]

... Let common sense prevail...
Jim

Jim, arent you aware that common sense is NOT too common? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[rbell]

Ann, good responses.

Because your responses were reasonable, measured, and factual...and because you annhialated the goofy viewpoint of the OP...I fully expect one of two responses:

1. Silence; or
2. A post that registers a 10 on the paranoid-ridiculous-o-meter.

 

[Aaron]

Ultimately everyone is responsible for his own health care. Doctors are fallible and sinful men just like everyone else, and there are very few good doctors. I have rejected a doctor's advice on more than one occasion after doing independent research, and was glad I did.

Here's the thing with pills, most of the time you're simply exchanging one set of symptoms for a new set. Yeah, your fibromyalgia might not hurt as much, but watch out heart and kidneys!

Unless a condition can truly be corrected, a minimalist approach is usually the best approach.

 

[Phillip]

In the early days, before national health in England, we couldn't afford health care and we went to the gypsies. One of the most popular medicines was vinegar. Amazing, innit. Vinegar, inhaled, is still one of the best "medicines" for sore throats, cuts and a few other things. Now don't for get the daily spoon of cod liver oil!

It is interesting that vinegar is one of the first "drugs" mentioned in the Old Testament.

As Gold Dragon mentioned, there is room for both kinds of treatments. Let common sense prevail. Not many years ago, the average general practioner didn't have a clue about diabetes. I think one doctor said that their whole learning about diabetes was just a few hours in a lecture out of the whole of their medical training.

So, let's find the balance we live our lives, and as some have said, It doesn't belong in the pulpit.

Cheers,

Jim

I knew a fireman who worked with my dad. Sadly, he was killed when a 7 story building wall crashed on him. But, before this, I would often go to the fire-station where I would stay the night and dad would take me to school before he went to his other job fixing two-way radios for the city.

We were eating breakfast, which at the firestation meals are always a big deal and good conversation.

The fireman who was later killed was an Indian and he told me about his grandmother who had chronic headaches.

The other indians put her in a smokehouse and put herbs in pots in the corner and burned them. Her headaches miraculously went away and she would feel great.

He said it was not until the police demonstrated the smell of Marijuana (which you never forget) did he recognize the smell of the herbs being burned to remove his mother's headaches. Obviously, it worked and no wonder she liked it. :laugh: