Would the founders have left God out of the Constitution...

My issue is that all of these men were well informed. They were well educated and influenced even subtily but the European Enlightenments. They were a diverse group, the deist leaning members would have been "soft" on Reason, as they were on religion.

The certainly did not reject religion and morals, but I contend that "religion" was only a part of their belief system. We find very little evidence in their actions that there was a stress on personal salvation in Jesus Christ.

Now you have started me thinking about another thread on supporting missionaries .

 

no I don't yhink they knew of the abortions and gay marrige that was going on in England at the time. I didn't know about it either. (not meaning to go sarcastic on ya Bro.)

They did not "see" WE would get this bad.

 

and getting off target again. why are they (gov.)so afraid to let the voucher system get going for schools.

 

They certainly knew of abortions. Abortions have always been going on, especially prior to the advent of birth control. But back then, it was done in secret. One could just as easily have asked is they knew of slavery. They most certainly did, and decided that to be a necessary evil that future generations would have to tackle.

I don't wish to belittle the abortion issue, but the Constitutional Framers knew very well what they were doing when they drafted our Constitution.

 

They all knew man's nature, even the secularists. Some in England even advocated that evil was necessary for a society to function. This guys had close ties with England and read all the stuff that was coming out of there. They knew the news. Homosexuality was rampant, along with just about every other vice under the sun. They still chose to leave God out, wisely, IMHO.

 

I am going to stick with my broken record . I don't think they invision that every night a large % of the nation would be bombarded with TV that continues to glorify or at least say gay is an option. That a girl could get an abortion and her parents never have to know that gay life style would be taught in kindergarden that a president would commit adultry and get nothing for it . (He is seen every night now as a chanpion for helping storm victioms)no I do not think they could imagine this. I can't even imagine it while I type this.

 

I believe many of the founders understood that our rights are given to us by God and that the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence go hand in hand. The Constitution itself connects itself to the Declaration of Independence by dating itself from the date of the Declaration of Independence, thereby showing clearly that it is the second great document in the government of these United States and is not to be understood without the first. Lincolon's "four score and seven years ago" refers to to 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

The birth of our nation is dated with our nation's charter, the Declaration of Independence, there are many who believe they can interpret the Constitution without any regard to the Declaration, this was never our founding father's intent!

 

The Declaration of Independence was just that - a declaration of independence. It was not a governmental document. There is no governance contained therein. It states the rationale behind the decision to separate and charges against the crown.

Its author denied all the miracles of Christ and His resurrection. He considered Paul the greatest villan who ever lived.

If his concept of God is the God our nation is founded on, then we I don't worship that god. Jefferson's Jesus remained in the grave.

Read the Jefferson Bible here:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/


This is part of the reason the founding fathers would have left God out of the Constitution, they could not agree on Who He is.

 

Yeah and I think they were Calvinists too. They knew the nature of man and that sin and lawlessness would increase. I think they believed in separation of church and state. My baptist church does...though they don't believe in condoning immorality, they do believe in separation.

 

so you think knowing the condition that "CURRENTLY" exist they still would have left it as is?

 

I myself think they would. Remember, they didn't live in a holy vacuum back then. There was sin then too.

I don't believe that we can assume what they would have done back then or anything. All we can go by is what they did.

 

Undoubtedly. They lived in a wicked world, they knew it, and still left God out.

18th century America was note some kind of big Sunday School party. Sin was rampant. They knew the horrendous sin of slavery and still did not choose to include God in the document.

 

just play like I am stupid and give me the scripture that backs this up:

"horrendous sin of slavery"

I'm not saying I disagree with you.

 

James 2v1-13 for example.

 

The difference is that the Declaration of Independence is not a document of law. It's a declaration. That's it. Declarations and resolutions are simply statements made by governing bodies. They have no value of statute, ordinance, or codification.

The claim that the D of I is codified by the COnstitution falls apart when one realizes that the D of I was not followed by the Constitution, but by the Articles of Confederation.

 

Not saying the Declaration of Independence is a document of law, but it is the document that helps one understand what the founders believed when they were setting up our system of government. The Declaration of Independence sets the foundation for the Articles of Confederation and the US Constitution. These foundations include the belief by our founding fathers "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government".

Without these principles our Constitution is not what our founding fathers intended it to be, and as we have seen throughout history, starting around 1860, allows the government to abuse it's power against the people and view the Constitution as a "living document" and the Declaration of Independence as just a historical piece of paper. They never intended to declare our independence from one tyrannical government only to establish a government here that would grow to become tyrannical itself, but we have allowed our government to do just that!

 

I'm sorry, but there is no way whatsoever that the D of I interprets the Constitution, be it in law, or purpose. None.

 

I didn't say it interprets the Constitution, I said that it helps us understand the minds and beliefs of the founding fathers. There are many today in Washington and else were who in their attempts to interpret the Constitution only pervert what the founding fathers intended, this happens because these people don't have a proper understanding of our founding fathers beliefs and principles, but instead have been indoctrinated their entire lives with a humanistic thought process that is destructive to our Constitutional Republic.

 

"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

"The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. (*) ME 2:303, Papers 2:546



http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm