Would this happen at the Rapture?

[kyredneck]

Ky redneck uses the example of John the Baptist leaping in Elizabeth's womb as justification of babies being saved.

It's an example of "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow...thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb. Lu 1

 

[unprofitable]

It's an example of "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow...thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb. Lu 1

It's an example of "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow...thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb. Lu 1

I understand your point and that the scriptures are true but my point is that John the Baptist did not die in the womb. He was ordained to salvation (Jn 17:3 the knowledge of the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent) therefore he was ordained to be a witness of the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matt 6:33). This is true of all the righteous. They are given this knowledge by grace which always has a purpose. 2 Tim 1:9 says, "Who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own grace and purpose , which was given us in Christ before the world began." His grace AND purpose relate to the charge/ordained command of building up of the kingdom of God, the edifying of the body of Christ (2 Chron 28:20, Ezra 1:2, Psalms 132:5, Matt 28:18-20,Eph 4:12,16).

A child who dies in the womb or in the womb at the rapture:

1- has never been ordained to keep the charge of raising up the kingdom of God as the local, literal, visible body, of Christ. This requires an individual capable of rational thought given by the Holy Spirit..

2- have never brought forth fruit/works unto righteousness (Jn 15:8) (repentance being one aspect) and then the edifying of the body of Christ.

3-having never brought fruit unto righteousness, therefore have never glorified the Father (jn 15:8)

4-has never been a witness of nor seen the kingdom of God and his righteousness. John 3:3 says"...Except a man be born again (from above/of the Spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God. We can also word it as Except a man has seen the kingdom of God, he has not been born again.' The witness of Christ from the womb is shown in the example of John the Baptist who grew to adulthood and became a great man of God. This is not possible by those who die in the womb. The righteous will always be born both literally and of the water and Spirit (Jn 3:5)

5-has never been a disciple of Christ Jn 15:8)

6-having fallen in Adam, bearing his fallen nature, and unable to bring forth a single thought acceptable to the Lord about his kingdom and righteousness, would be in need of a savior

Why then would an unborn and unregenerate infant that dies in the womb be able to enter the kingdom of God? (Jn 3:5)

The righteous will ALWAYS fulfill their appointed purpose and charge by the Spirit of Christ in them, thus we see the justification of John the Baptist.

These are a few thoughts that have come to mind. I will continue posting, as time permits, replies to those who have been gracious enough to reply to me.

 

[unprofitable]

Salty asked in the OP whether it would matter if the mother was saved or lost. The mother is not the giver of life. We see this in the example of Rebekah bearing the twins Jacob and Esau. Jacob was righteous but Esau was not.

Genesis 21:23 says, "And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and one people shall be stronger that the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger."

Jacob represented an appointed seedline of the Father, It did not depend on the will or spiritual condition of Rebekah.

 

[unprofitable]

I also want to thank Salty in showing me that I need to clarify some points. I need to quit posting late at night when I am tired and not as lucid as at other times. Bear with me Salty. I am doing my best to not drift of the OP but will try to tie it all together to the best of my ability as given by the Lord.

That being said, the ultimate spiritual condition of Jacob and Esau were appointed before the foundation of the world, and was declared to Rebekah BY THE LORD while they were still IN THE WOMB. Why then do we labor to declare life for unborn children who die before birth when we have the example of Jacob and Esau that is contrary to our labor. It is the Lord that giveth life according to his good will and pleasure. Acts 13:48 says, "...and as many as were ordained to eternal life (Jn 17:3-to the knowledge of) believed."

The word ordain means to be given a charge or command. David says in 71:3, "thou hast given commandment (a charge or to ordain) to save me.

Why then do we find it necessary to give life to all unborn who die in the womb when it is contrary to the above example?. The charge to save them or ordain them to eternal life (the knowledge of the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent) was not given otherwise they would accomplish the charge or ultimate end given to them as it relates to the kingdom of God. Jacob and Esau accomplished their appointed ends. The unborn who die in the womb cannot.

 

[Salty]

Unprofitable
You have brought up some interesting - but very un-orthodox discussion -
but more importantly - you are going very well OFF OP
I would suggest you start a new thread -
and with that said - lets get back on the OP.

Which is:
NOTE: - this Thread is ONLY for those who have a belief in the Rapture - whether it is pre, mid, post.
If you do not accept the doctrine of the rapture - your comments are NOT welcomed.
Please respect this thread.

So here is the question:

If at the moment of the Rapture - will the soon-to-be-born baby be raptured?
Would it make a difference if the baby has only been conceived the day before
or the regular due date would be within a week?

Would it make a difference if mom saved or not?

Let the discussion begin!

 

[unprofitable]

I finally figured out what you are saying ---
BUT I totally disagree with you! -
You are saying for for almost a year - no female will get pregnant

Never heard of that before -

Nope I dont accept that!

I did not say no females would become pregnant for almost a year before the rapture.. I said the there would be no pregnant women SAINTS at the rapture. a big difference.

I also said there would be so few christians taken out at the rapture that most would not even notice they were gone. There were only 8 who went on the ark so why should be expect a great number at the rapture. Thus the reason in my first point clarified.

If you totally disagree, please give scripture to contradict the scriptures I have presented in my posts. You owe that to me as your brother. Your personal opinion of speculation without scriptural backup does little to help me see what you believe to be truth. You also need to clarify.

My posts concerning whether infants still in the womb have life or not helps qualify who would or would not be taken in the rapture. My opinion and what I present as scriptural evidence show clearly there will be no unborn taken in the rapture neither does the spiritual condition of the mother make any difference as presented in the example of Rebekah, Jacob, and Esau.

The Father has set the covenant boundary lines of the kingdom of God and those in it.

 

[unprofitable]

Someone who has not committed a sin, which is defined as a conscious act of rebellion against the law of God, does not need a savior and will be included in the blessings of God. You do not think Adam needed for Jesus to die for him before he sinned, do you?

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The above is parenthetical to a greater point on the subject of justifying faith. You should read the context.

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, (NO CONSCIOUS ACT OF REBELLION AGAINST THE LAW OF GOD) that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works ,but of him that calleth

vs 12 It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger .

vs 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[JD731]

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, (NO CONSCIOUS ACT OF REBELLION AGAINST THE LAW OF GOD) that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works ,but of him that calleth

vs 12 It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger .

vs 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You fellows called Hyper Calvinists wear me out with your ignorance. Jacob and Esau are the sons of Isaac, not sons of God. Esau represents the natural man, the first born, and Jacob represents the spiritual man, the second born man. It is in continuity with Adam, the earthy man, who came first and the spiritual man, Jesus Christ, who is the second man. You fellows would not understand a spiritual truth if it smacked you in the face, which it does on every p[age of every book of the scriptures. Conversely, God in his typology considers Israel, the nation, as being born collectively as a natural man (see Ex 6) and delivered out of sin and the world (Egypt) and their history proving that they sin like a natural man and therefore must be born again. When Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 that except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, in the primary context of that chapter he was speaking of this natural man, Israel, because every one of them must be born again before he establishes his kingdom on earth.

But I am not going to prove that from the scriptures because you fellows do not believe the scriptures. You do the best you can trying to figure God our through human wisdom.

 

[unprofitable]

This is an interesting position. One that I would say could not be dogmatically supported or rejected. Like Salty, I have never heard this position before, lol.



John was filled with the Spirit of God:

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I'm sure you understand that the filling of the Spirit is an empowering ministry of God in both the Old and New Testaments. Some view the filling as an equivalent to the eternal indwelling of God promised in the Old Testament but received by believers when the New Covenant was established.

I think the most relevant issue of John's condition in the context of this discussion is that we see that John was, before he was born, a person. He had a conscious understanding:

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

As far as the entirety of your post, the issue that stands out for me is the condition of the babe in the womb from a salvific standpoint: I don't view babes in the womb as "innocent," because they are separated from God just like those who are born. John, in the womb, filled with the Holy Ghost—was separated from God. He was "innocent" in the sense that he had no capacity to commit sin, nor to turn in faith to God or Christ, but his death in the womb would not have been a candidate for Heaven because he never sinned (for that is impossible in the lives of natural men), but rather he would have been judged in the same manner God always judges men throughout Scripture: according to their response to the revelation he has provided to them.

There is a principle set forth in Scripture that God will judge men according to their understanding of the revelation He provides. In Hebrews 10—

Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The above contrasts the ones rejecting God's will under the (Covenant of) Law with the ones rejecting God's will under the New Covenant. They have rejected ...

1. The Son of God;
2. The Salvation of Christ;
3. His death;
4. His Covenant (promised in the Old Testament);
5. The convicting ministry of the Comforter (the Spirit of Grace).

There is more severe judgment for those rejecting the revealed Gospel of Christ (previously unrevealed in past ages and generations) than for those who rejected "Moses' Law," or, the Covenant of Law. Jame wrote, "Be ye not many masters/teachers, for we shall receive the greater condemnation/judgment."

So I would suggest that babes that die in the womb will be judged according to the consistency of God, Who is just to judge men accordingly, rather than a blanket condemnation among them.


Continued...

Thanks for the extensive reply. It may take a little while to address all the comments.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was present in the old covenant saints as the spiritual remnant. Isa 37:31 says And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.
This was the prophesy that of the coming kingdom of God as well as the remnant still present at that time that had not bowed the knee to Baal.

The genealogy of Christ is listed in the third chapter of John shows that indwelliing. Concerning Adam in the 38th verse it is said, " Adam which was the son of God." How can a these men be in that seedline (having the life of Christ in them) and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in him to guide him as a son of God?

Gen 18:19 says concerning Abraham's sons and household after him that they would keep the way of the Lord to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he had spoken of him (Gen 12: 1-3 and related verses)
How could this be accomplished without the continues presence of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit was given/manifested to the new covenant church as the sons and household of Abraham on the day of Pentecost to validate it as the Lord dwelling with them, his being their God, and they being his people.

I would like to be able to address you comments but Salty probably wants it moved to another thread. I have never done that but if you can/want to we can.

Go to go get my brother in law. Will comment later

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks for the extensive reply. It may take a little while to address all the comments.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was present in the old covenant saints as the spiritual remnant. Isa 37:31 says And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.
This was the prophesy that of the coming kingdom of God as well as the remnant still present at that time that had not bowed the knee to Baal.

The genealogy of Christ is listed in the third chapter of John shows that indwelliing. Concerning Adam in the 38th verse it is said, " Adam which was the son of God." How can a these men be in that seedline (having the life of Christ in them) and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in him to guide him as a son of God?

Gen 18:19 says concerning Abraham's sons and household after him that they would keep the way of the Lord to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he had spoken of him (Gen 12: 1-3 and related verses)
How could this be accomplished without the continues presence of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit was given/manifested to the new covenant church as the sons and household of Abraham on the day of Pentecost to validate it as the Lord dwelling with them, his being their God, and they being his people.

I would like to be able to address you comments but Salty probably wants it moved to another thread. I have never done that but if you can/want to we can.

Go to go get my brother in law. Will comment later

Whew!

I have my hands full right now with the peanut gallery, lol. I am not sure I can take a response from a serious poster right now!

I will get to it hopefully in the morning, though.



God bless

 

[unprofitable]

You fellows called Hyper Calvinists wear me out with your ignorance. Jacob and Esau are the sons of Isaac, not sons of God. Esau represents the natural man, the first born, and Jacob represents the spiritual man, the second born man. It is in continuity with Adam, the earthy man, who came first and the spiritual man, Jesus Christ, who is the second man. You fellows would not understand a spiritual truth if it smacked you in the face, which it does on every p[age of every book of the scriptures. Conversely, God in his typology considers Israel, the nation, as being born collectively as a natural man (see Ex 6) and delivered out of sin and the world (Egypt) and their history proving that they sin like a natural man and therefore must be born again. When Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 that except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, in the primary context of that chapter he was speaking of this natural man, Israel, because every one of them must be born again before he establishes his kingdom on earth.

But I am not going to prove that from the scriptures because you fellows do not believe the scriptures. You do the best you can trying to figure God our through human wisdom.

Luke 3:34 lists Jacob as being one of the sons of God in showing the genealogy of Christ back to Adam. The bible clearly states he was a son of God. Esau was not a son of God in the context of the seedline of the righteous. That is not my wisdom but the word of God.

The carnal and spiritual are in the church, the Israel of God today. Christ told the Pharisees in Luke 17:21..."the kingdom of God in within or in the midst of you. This was the kingdom of God coming forth that the righteous therein were to receive.as a people and nation. It was the kingdom spoken of when Christ said in Matt 21:43, "The kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." What nation did he give the kingdom to? He was referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit given to the church as that nation that would bring forth the fruits of the righteousness of Christ. This is the nation to whom the kingdom was given. If you are still waiting for national Israel to receive Christ you have not seen the kingdom of God established in Matt 16:18 If you think that the world has been without that kingdom for 2000 years, you have not seen the power and authority given to the church in Luke 9:1.

The darkness that is in you concerning the kingdom shows me I do not need your help trying to figure out any of the word of God. May God have mercy on you.

 

[unprofitable]

Whew!

I have my hands full right now with the peanut gallery, lol. I am not sure I can take a response from a serious poster right now!

I will get to it hopefully in the morning, though.



God bless

Whew!

I have my hands full right now with the peanut gallery, lol. I am not sure I can take a response from a serious poster right now!

I will get to it hopefully in the morning, though.



God bless

I understand. God bless you too

 

[Salty]

I am temporally closing this thread
as so many have went so far off OP
Not to mention some beliefs that go beyond thinking of most Evangelicals

If you want to continue some of those - then start a new thread.