Would you accept a divorced and remarried minister?

[MorganT]

No, I asked a question - which you haven't answered. While I'm waiting, I'll ask another one: what does "children" mean? Does it mean - as Jerome has said - two or more? Does it mean offspring of any age or minors? If the latter, is a person disqualified from being a pastor when his youngest child reaches 18? Or if his child dies before reaching the age of 18?

Brother I have proven to you with scripture my stance now its your turn to back up what you are saying with scripture and while Im waiting, I will twittle my thumbs and sing Com ba ya for the simple reason that you cant prove anything, all you can do is speculate. Next thing you know you will tell me that Adam and Eve's names were not Adam and Eve but Frank and Mary or something. Go ahead and rewrite the four gospels while your at it. So Jesus didnt die he just almost died, go ahead and spread your lies, I have the word of God and I stand FIRM on it, I dont compromise and I dont wiggle. I have proven it with scripture, now its your turn.

 

[MorganT]

The Bible clearly mentions that marriage does not survive death. If your wife dies, you are no longer the husband of one wife.

Yes I am aware that it free's a person to remarry, im not argueing that fact. I believe that we ORDAIN our Pastors, correct. In order for them to be ORDAINED they need to meet the qualificaitons at the time that they were ordained and strive to live a Christ like life. Death is something that we have no control over however divorce is something we have control over.

 

[StefanM]

Yes I am aware that it free's a person to remarry, im not argueing that fact. I believe that we ORDAIN our Pastors, correct. In order for them to be ORDAINED they need to meet the qualificaitons at the time that they were ordained and strive to live a Christ like life. Death is something that we have no control over however divorce is something we have control over.

Not if your wife leaves you.

 

[MorganT]

Not if your wife leaves you.

Well I guess you can do whatever you want to but Im going to stick to the word of God and follow it, you can twist it all you want, I will have to answer for me and you will have to answer for you and trust me you will be held accountable just as I will be. I stand FIRM on the WORD of GOD as its written without what if's and how comes.

 

[StefanM]

Well I guess you can do whatever you want to but Im going to stick to the word of God and follow it, you can twist it all you want, I will have to answer for me and you will have to answer for you and trust me you will be held accountable just as I will be. I stand FIRM on the WORD of GOD as its written without what if's and how comes.

Have fun with your martyr complex.

 

[Matt Black]

And you're still ducking the questions

 

[donnA]

Well I guess you can do whatever you want to but Im going to stick to the word of God and follow it, you can twist it all you want, I will have to answer for me and you will have to answer for you and trust me you will be held accountable just as I will be. I stand FIRM on the WORD of GOD as its written without what if's and how comes.

AMEN! a good statement

 

[MorganT]

Have fun with your martyr complex.

So its your view that since I stand firm on Gods word and I wont compromise the word of GOD to fit your wants and needs that Im a Martyr thats interesting because I accept that complex fully.

The term martyr (Greek μάρτυς martys "witness") is most commonly used today to describe an individual who sacrifices his or her life (or personal freedom) in order to further a cause or belief for many. Long ago, it initially signified a witness in the forensic sense, a person called to bear witness in legal proceedings. With this meaning it was used in the secular sphere as well as in both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.[1] The process of bearing witness was not intended to lead to the death of the witness, although it is known from ancient writers (e.g. Josephus) that witnesses, especially of the lower classes, were tortured routinely before being interrogated as a means of forcing them to disclose the truth. During the early Christian centuries the term acquired the extended meaning of a believer who is called to witness for his or her religious belief and on account of this witness endures suffering and death. In the English language, the term is a loanword, and often used with the extended meaning of someone who has been killed for his religious belief. The death of a martyr or the value attributed to it is called martyrdom.

I did die to myself when I accepted Jesus and now I live for him. Thanks have a good day.:jesus:

 

[MorganT]

And you're still ducking the questions

No but you are, please give me scripture to back up your view. Im still waiting.

 

[Matt Black]

I asked you a series of questions. You answer those first.

 

[StefanM]

So its your view that since I stand firm on Gods word and I wont compromise the word of GOD to fit your wants and needs that Im a Martyr thats interesting because I accept that complex fully.

The term martyr (Greek μάρτυς martys "witness") is most commonly used today to describe an individual who sacrifices his or her life (or personal freedom) in order to further a cause or belief for many. Long ago, it initially signified a witness in the forensic sense, a person called to bear witness in legal proceedings. With this meaning it was used in the secular sphere as well as in both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.[1] The process of bearing witness was not intended to lead to the death of the witness, although it is known from ancient writers (e.g. Josephus) that witnesses, especially of the lower classes, were tortured routinely before being interrogated as a means of forcing them to disclose the truth. During the early Christian centuries the term acquired the extended meaning of a believer who is called to witness for his or her religious belief and on account of this witness endures suffering and death. In the English language, the term is a loanword, and often used with the extended meaning of someone who has been killed for his religious belief. The death of a martyr or the value attributed to it is called martyrdom.

I did die to myself when I accepted Jesus and now I live for him. Thanks have a good day.:jesus:

I did not say you were a martyr but that you have a martyr complex.

If having some sort of battle without really interacting with the issues makes you feel like you are a big warrior for God, then by all means proceed.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I hope that those who believe that divorce is not justifiable under any circumstances never have their spouse say to them as mine did as she is committing adultery over and over even with his relatives, "I won't change." Then see if that person gets a divorce or just lovingly endures it. How many would stay with someone like that? I put up with it for 5 years, and even took her back twice when she left. However, when she asked me, "Would you remarry me?" I had to say "No." I could no longer trust her as I once did. After all, she did tell me that she would never change. Why would I believe that she had? I no sooner moved out before another man moved in.

 

[Matt Black]

Interesting. I asked the following questions:

What if they can't have children? What if they're recently married and are deferring starting a family but nevertheless apply for the post of pastor at your church?

So far I've not recieved a specific answer to these questions; please do me the courtesy of a reply.

 

[Salty]

Interesting. I asked the following questions: So far I've not recieved a specific answer to these questions; please do me the courtesy of a reply.

Originally Posted by [B]Matt Black[/B]
[I]What if they can't have children? What if they're [/I]
[I]recently married and are deferring starting a family [/I]
[I]but nevertheless apply for the post of pastor at [/I]
[I]your church?[/I]

How can they answer you if they dont have a good reason for their belief :smilewinkgrin:

 

[thegospelgeek]

Interesting. I asked the following questions: So far I've not recieved a specific answer to these questions; please do me the courtesy of a reply.

I thought I did in post #6

 

[MorganT]

Interesting. I asked the following questions: So far I've not recieved a specific answer to these questions; please do me the courtesy of a reply.

Im going to answer with the word of God, not my view but Gods view.

1Ti 3:1-7 Faithful is the Word: If anyone reaches out to overseership, he desires a good work. (2) Then it behooves the overseer to be without reproach, husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, well-ordered, hospitable, apt at teaching, (3) not a drunkard, not contentious, not greedy of ill gain, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous, (4) ruling his own house well, having children in subjection with all honor. (5) (For if a man does not know to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) (6) not a novice, lest being puffed up he may fall into the condemnation of the Devil. (7) But he must also have a good report from those on the outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil.

Verse 2 says that an overseer it TO BE
Verse 2 says Husband of one wife (this leaves out women as being Pastors)
Verse 4 says Children (this means he MUST HAVE children) (they could be adopted of course just so long as they have children)
Verse 5 says that if they dont know how to rule those in his own house then how could he take care of the Church of GOD

and next lets look at Titus shall we

Tit 1:5-9 For this cause I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed you, (6) if anyone is blameless, husband of one wife, having believing children, not accused of loose behavior, or disobedient. (7) For an overseer must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not full of passion, not given to wine, not quarrelsome, not greedy for ill gain; (8) but hospitable, a lover of good, discreet, just, holy, temperate, (9) holding fast the faithful Word according to the doctrine, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and to convict the gainsayers.


Now verse 6 takes it a step farther, it says that a Pastors children must be saved (having believing children) that means not babys so that tells me they must be older to be Pastor and of course it still says husband of one wife.

So to sum up what I believe
1. A pastor must be a man
2. A pastor must be married and husband to only one wife
3. A pastor must have believing children

I think we sometimes confuse men that just get out of School with being Pastor material when in fact they may just be Minister material. A man can be a preacher without being a Pastor. The bible is clear and precise and I dont really see the argument however if you have scripture to refute this Im open to it. I could be wrong but if I am I would like to be showed were I am wrong with scripture not with feelings or emotions.

 

[Matt Black]

I thought I did in post #6

Yes, you did - I was directing the question at Morgan T, to whom I'm grateful for his answer. Some further questions arising therefrom, however:

1. "Husband of one wife" - does that mean he must be married (as opposed to widowed or divorced), or is it directed against polygamy? Does it mean that he is prohibited from having one wife after his first has died or left him, or does it merely mean he is prohibited from having more than one at a time?

2. Episkopos - on what basis are you equating that with 'pastor', since there is already a perfectly adequate Greek word for the latter, poimanein, which, interestingly, Paul doesn't use here, although it is used elsewhere in the NT?

 

[MorganT]

Yes, you did - I was directing the question at Morgan T, to whom I'm grateful for his answer. Some further questions arising therefrom, however:

1. "Husband of one wife" - does that mean he must be married (as opposed to widowed or divorced), or is it directed against polygamy? Does it mean that he is prohibited from having one wife after his first has died or left him, or does it merely mean he is prohibited from having more than one at a time?

2. Episkopos - on what basis are you equating that with 'pastor', since there is already a perfectly adequate Greek word for the latter, poimanein, which, interestingly, Paul doesn't use here, although it is used elsewhere in the NT?

If he is divorced then that means that he could not rule his own his, therefore he could not run the house of God. There are some that will believe that a widowed man would have to step down but I dont believe quite that strongly especially if he has pastored for years and his wife passed away. He has shown that he could rule his house therefore he is still qualified.

As for your number two I will have to look at a little closer, because right now Im off to work. Im still wondering if you are after information or just trying to play games, if its the latter then please dont waste my time, however if you are truly trying to have a biblical discussion for learning on both sides then its not showing very well.
God Bless

 

[thegospelgeek]

Yes, you did - I was directing the question at Morgan T, to whom I'm grateful for his answer. Some further questions arising therefrom, however:

1. "Husband of one wife" - does that mean he must be married (as opposed to widowed or divorced), or is it directed against polygamy? Does it mean that he is prohibited from having one wife after his first has died or left him, or does it merely mean he is prohibited from having more than one at a time?

As I wrote in post #20, the pastor must be the husband of one wife and raised a child/children in the proper manner thus demonstrating the ability to manage the family for one can not manage the houshold how can they manage the church? The key point of the enire passage is that opne must be able to do this and be of good character. A widowed husband who properly managed his household would qualify if he met the remaineder of the qualifications.

The divorce issue can be quite complicated. Our conference will not knowingly ordain anyone who is divorced, no exceptions. As a member of this conference I would abide by this stance. However, I do believe there are circumstances where a divorced man could qualify.

The phrase "husband of one wife" also takes into account womanizing. God does not want an Episkopos who cheats, lust, fornicates, or commits adultery. I hope this clarifies my beliefs.

2. Episkopos - on what basis are you equating that with 'pastor', since there is already a perfectly adequate Greek word for the latter, poimanein, which, interestingly, Paul doesn't use here, although it is used elsewhere in the NT?

I am far from a Greek scholar, or any other scholar for that matter but it is my understanding that Episkopos translated here as bishop and other places as overseer, entails the office that I reference today as Pastor, while poimanein, translated pastor in Eph 4:11 and shepard in all other uses references the duties or works of the position.

I don't want to get into a debate over the title of the overseer of the local church. Some call them Pastor, some Elder, some Bishop. I don't really care and find such debates as trivial as how you reference Revelation or Revelations.

 

[Martin Luther]

(Presuming his first wife hadn't ended their marriage by her adultery)

[ETA - OK, how do I do the whole poll thing? I just want one with a yes or no answer on it. Thanks!]

Yes, with one caveat, that churches are to be run by all its members, the elders pastors deacons are just servants.