Would YOU be a Slaveholder?

[Melanie]

I would love to have a slave for a day but the poor sap would no doubt revolt and slaughter me. Realistically it would probably be reversed and I would be the slave so no way.

It is impossible to think in terms of the period for me. I find it repellent to presume to the arrogance of owning another human being, it would offend God for me to so presume....

 

[Dale]

My whole point in all of this has been that the Bible does not prohibit slavery, therefor I can't either.

As far as the way that the slave is treated, he should be treated with the utmost dignity and respect from the master. He should be given his full compensation for his labor (yes, slave labor still requires compensation in the form of ALL expenses paid regardless of the age or health of the slave)

So I will request once again for someone to please show me Biblically the prohibition of slavery.
I don't want to ever be a slave and I don't want to ever be a slave owner, however my feelings don't change God and His Word.

 

[just-want-peace]

--however my feelings don't change God and His Word.

Would that more posters take this attitude on their thoughts!

 

[DavidFWhite3]

Fascinating thread.

If I had lived in the Old South, before The War, was rich and a land holder, I would have owned slaves I assume. But what kind of slaveholder would I have been might be the more relevant question. How would my slaves be treated? That would be the factor in determining decent men who owned slaves vs. indecent men who owned slaves in a time and a place so radically different from our own. Thank God we live in a time where the practice is at least no longer legal. A more important question is what do our personal politics reveal about our attitude toward slave labor, and how we benefit from it every day?

 

[Dale]

Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
Fascinating thread.

If I had lived in the Old South, before The War, was rich and a land holder, I would have owned slaves I assume. But what kind of slaveholder would I have been might be the more relevant question. How would my slaves be treated? That would be the factor in determining decent men who owned slaves vs. indecent men who owned slaves in a time and a place so radically different from our own. Thank God we live in a time where the practice is at least no longer legal. A more important question is what do our personal politics reveal about our attitude toward slave labor, and how we benefit from it every day?

Good point. Most of us don't seem to mind the benefits of slave and very cheap labor when we buy low cost foreign made products. Actually, in some countries today where they are paid and are not technically slaves, they are paid so little that it would be better if they WERE slaves. Most of our stores now don't pay their employees very well to keep prices low and we don't mind that either.
All in all, the unfair treatment of workers, bond or free is still alive and well and I will say that it will continue as long as sin is on the earth.

 

[DHK]

It wasn't Paul's purpose to change society by political reform, nor by rebellion or civil war. His mission was to preach the gospel in spite of the society and culture in which he lived. When Onesimus ran away from Philemon, he ran to Paul for help. There he was saved. Paul advised him to go back to his master, Philemon, even though he could be face drastic measures, possibly even his life as punishment. But Paul writes one of the most beautiful epistles of forgiveness in the Bible, pleading for the forgiveness of Onesimus on his account, and offering to pay the penalty and restore whatever he had taken himself. The greatest appeal of his letter is for Philemon to reinstate Onesimus not just as a slave but as a brother in Christ, as he had become to Paul. It is believed that Philemon did so.

Christ is the only one that can set people free. The history of the Negroes in America in the early 1800's is fascinating, and in many ways parallels that of Christianity in the first century. The Negro Spirituals came from the heart and soul of a people who were kept in bondage by cruel white men who could bind the body, but not the soul. The soul of the Negro was free (spiritually) long before they were free physically. Their bondage and cruel treatment caused them to turn to Christ, from which they sang about their trials, and looked for their hope in Christ.

Often, putting their very lives in danger, in the darkness of the night they would go off into the forest and hold their services, singing such songs as:

Can't you live humble?
Praise King Jesus!
Can't you live humble
To the dyin' lamb?
Lightenin' flashes, thunders roll,
Make me think of my poor soul.
Come here, Jesus, come here please
See me Jesus on my knees.
Can't you live humble?
Praise King Jesus!
Can't you live humble
To the dyin' lamb?

Their music, (ie., the lyrics), were the expression of the true Christianity that they had found, and the peace and joy that it had given them in spite of the cruel treatment that they had received. If they had to judge Christianity by the actions of their white masters few would have ever be saved as is evidenced in their song:

"Everybody talkin' about
Heaven ain't goin' there..."

DHK

 

[Benfranklin403]

>>>>>>So I will request once again for someone to please show me Biblically the prohibition of slavery. <<<<<<<

Dale,

Seems to me that slavery is in conflict with the Golden Rule, which is directly from the words of Christ. Please comment.

 

[ChurchBoy]

Originally posted by DHK:
It wasn't Paul's purpose to change society by political reform, nor by rebellion or civil war. His mission was to preach the gospel in spite of the society and culture in which he lived. When Onesimus ran away from Philemon, he ran to Paul for help. There he was saved. Paul advised him to go back to his master, Philemon, even though he could be face drastic measures, possibly even his life as punishment. But Paul writes one of the most beautiful epistles of forgiveness in the Bible, pleading for the forgiveness of Onesimus on his account, and offering to pay the penalty and restore whatever he had taken himself. The greatest appeal of his letter is for Philemon to reinstate Onesimus not just as a slave but as a brother in Christ, as he had become to Paul. It is believed that Philemon did so.

Christ is the only one that can set people free. The history of the Negroes in America in the early 1800's is fascinating, and in many ways parallels that of Christianity in the first century. The Negro Spirituals came from the heart and soul of a people who were kept in bondage by cruel white men who could bind the body, but not the soul. The soul of the Negro was free (spiritually) long before they were free physically. Their bondage and cruel treatment caused them to turn to Christ, from which they sang about their trials, and looked for their hope in Christ.

Often, putting their very lives in danger, in the darkness of the night they would go off into the forest and hold their services, singing such songs as:

Can't you live humble?
Praise King Jesus!
Can't you live humble
To the dyin' lamb?
Lightenin' flashes, thunders roll,
Make me think of my poor soul.
Come here, Jesus, come here please
See me Jesus on my knees.
Can't you live humble?
Praise King Jesus!
Can't you live humble
To the dyin' lamb?

Their music, (ie., the lyrics), were the expression of the true Christianity that they had found, and the peace and joy that it had given them in spite of the cruel treatment that they had received. If they had to judge Christianity by the actions of their white masters few would have ever be saved as is evidenced in their song:

"Everybody talkin' about
Heaven ain't goin' there..."

DHK

I nominate DHK's post for "Post of the Year". Well said DHK.

 

[DavidFWhite3]

I Agree. Amen and Amen.

 

[Dale]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
>>>>>>So I will request once again for someone to please show me Biblically the prohibition of slavery. <<<<<<<

Dale,

Seems to me that slavery is in conflict with the Golden Rule, which is directly from the words of Christ. Please comment.

The Bible specifically deals with slavery and says for the servants to obey their masters.
Once again I will state that master SHOULD treat the slave as he would wish to be treated in the same situation..if that is the case then it certianly does not conflict.
Bottom line is the Bible talks a lot of slavery and never oncesays that it doesn't have it's place or that it is wrong.

 

[ChurchBoy]

Originally posted by Dale:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;So I will request once again for someone to please show me Biblically the prohibition of slavery. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Dale,

Seems to me that slavery is in conflict with the Golden Rule, which is directly from the words of Christ. Please comment.

The Bible specifically deals with slavery and says for the servants to obey their masters.
Once again I will state that master SHOULD treat the slave as he would wish to be treated in the same situation..if that is the case then it certianly does not conflict.
Bottom line is the Bible talks a lot of slavery and never oncesays that it doesn't have it's place or that it is wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]What if the master doesn't treat his slaves well? What then? What of the master that brutalizes the slave, sells his children, and uses his slave's wife? What what?

 

[Benfranklin403]

Dale, you responded to the question but not without some evasion. You failed to show how slavery is consistent with the Golden Rule. Would you please comment specifically on that relationship?

 

[Dale]

With your line of logic, we should not put men in jail or execute criminals because that is not "what we would have them do to us"
Like it or not we do not live in a perfect world. not all men are created the same and not all are placed in the same situations. When societies sin, they bring on themselves slavery in some form or another. This is GOD's Judgement on a people. Why was Isreal taken in to Babylon? It was a result of their sin. Now, there were certian "innocent" people such as Daniel etc, but they were not told to rebel and run away, instead they were the best slaves there and were highly favored.
My point in all of this is that slavery is not about right or wrong, should we have it or not but to understand the whole scope of it in the light of the Bible. I have only done light study on it but so far I seem to see that the Bible gives place for it.
When I asked about it on this board, I got generic resonses that "yes the Bible does say it is wrong" without any backup.
When I asked further, I got all of this about "the Golden Rule"

I didn't try to get in an argument, I just stated that I didn't see how the Bible prohibited the practice and when I asked for a Biblical prohibition, I still haven't gotten a decent answer.
I know it is not politically correct to take my position but it is about time that we get our answers from the Bible and not from pop culture and public opinion.

If you insist that it is the great evil you speak of, then please, give me some hard Biblical evidence to prove your point, otherwise let's just agree to disagree.
Afterall, you have to answer to God and not me and vice versa.
It doesn't matter what I think, what ever is right is right etc regardless of what I think.
So far no one has really given me any solid info,
meanwhile I will continue to study the issue.

God bless,

Dale

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Like it or not we do not live in a perfect world. not all men are created the same and not all are placed in the same situations.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

It is ironic and sad how some people continue to use the Bible to justify slavery. It is insane to insist that the Bible provide exact details of how to apply moral principles because the times we live in naturally provide circumstances that are new at least in the details.

I prefer the following description of the status of men in relation to each other:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;With your line of logic, we should not put men in jail or execute criminals because that is not "what we would have them do to us"&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Dale,

Your response is really another evasion of my question. I asked how is slavery consistent with the golden rule. Pointing out how other behavior is not consistent with the golden rule is not responsive to my question. Don't you have to admit, Dale, that slavery is not consistent with the Golden Rule and since the Golden Rule represents the words of Jesus, don't you think that he would disapprove slavery, if asked? It does seem to logically follow doesn't it?

 

[Dale]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Like it or not we do not live in a perfect world. not all men are created the same and not all are placed in the same situations.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

It is ironic and sad how some people continue to use the Bible to justify slavery. It is insane to insist that the Bible provide exact details of how to apply moral principles because the times we live in naturally provide circumstances that are new at least in the details.

I prefer the following description of the status of men in relation to each other:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

So you put the constitution above the Bible, if that is the case then we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;So you put the constitution above the Bible, if that is the case then we have nothing more to discuss.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I quoted the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I submit that my quote from the Declaration is more consistent with the teachings of Jesus than is your claim that slavery is acceptable.
The Golden Rule, which was indisputably given by Jesus, is the hard biblical evidence that you asked for and I don't know why you won't comment on it, unless of course there is some weakness in your arguments.

 

[Benfranklin403]

This is from Bush's inaugural address today:


The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."

 

[Daisy]

I believe that Dale is correct that slaveholding is condoned by the Bible, but not required.

I also believe that in most instances it violates the Golden Rule.