Would you dare pray this prayer,,,?

[Monergist]

From A Prayer That a Synergist Won't Pray
at CLICK THIS LINK

The following prayer is indeed a caricature that no synergist would dare pray, but is what a synergist would pray if he were consistent in his theology:

"God, I give you glory for everything else, but not my faith ... This is the one thing that is my very own that I produced of my natural capacities. For this little bit the glory is mine. I made better use of Your offer of salvation than others did. While You deserve glory for all I have Lord, my faith was the one part that I contributed to the price of my redemption, apart from and independent of the action of Your Holy Spirit."

Edited only to shorten link for proper page viewing

[ January 24, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Monergist:
From A Prayer That a Synergist Won't Pray
at h CLICK THIS LINK

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The following prayer is indeed a caricature that no synergist would dare pray, but is what a synergist would pray if he were consistent in his theology:

"God, I give you glory for everything else, but not my faith ... This is the one thing that is my very own that I produced of my natural capacities. For this little bit the glory is mine. I made better use of Your offer of salvation than others did. While You deserve glory for all I have Lord, my faith was the one part that I contributed to the price of my redemption, apart from and independent of the action of Your Holy Spirit."

</font>[/QUOTE]Would an unbeliever pray that prayer?
Would an unbeliever pray?

What your fleece does not express is that The God of Creation does not have faith to give, but he established for man all the reasons why man should have faith; and in man, God established the ability to come to faith in Him.

He declared that you hear my word and believe. The person who does what God directed, ends up with faith in God as a result of hearing the Word of God. The Word is a gift from God...Faith is not! The one who does not receive the Word of God has no faith. When you give your sweety a gift, it is entirely your sweety's prerogative in how to respond to the gift! You cannot instill in your sweety an automated response. The same applies to God's giving of Gifts. The Gifts of God are His Son, His behavior toward man (Grace), His word, and Salvation. It is up to us how we respond to the gifts given to us. I have responded with FAITH in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah, and an Eternal Love for God, my father.

For those who believe, "For by grace, are ye saved". If it is God God's grace that "saves" then ALL mankind are saved for God's grace overshadows ALL mankind. You see, grace is not a commodity that God dispenses like candy; it is a behavior that God exhibits toward His creation. We, ALL mankind, are under God's grace, therefore if Grace is what saves, then ALL mankind must be saved. That is the Universalists battle cry, and it is quite simply not Biblical!

Grace, which in God's eyes is Mercy, IS present so that man can hear the word of God, and believe unto faith.

It is not grace that saves...It is faith!

The gift of God is not faith!...It is His son, His word, His grace, and salvation for those who have faith!

So I praise God and give God all the Glory for establishing the reasons why I should hear his word and thereby believe unto FAITH in HIM. I praise God for giving me the ability to have faith which He did not give to me as a gift, but which I arrived at through believing his Word. Yes, I have faith, and it was not given to me by God as if it is a commodity that God dispenses like candy. He Gave me His word, and I believe in Jesus Christ his only begotten son, the Son of God, the Messiah. I receive Jesus' promise of Eternal Life in FAITH! I believe that I will not be judged and cast into the lake of fire, because I have faith in Jesus!

Edited only to shorten link for proper page viewing

[ January 24, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

[Yelsew]

Monergist, I took the privilege of responding to the questions on the Monergist page you posted.

If anyone thinks I am setting up a straw man here, please read and respond to the following challenge:

I often post full debates on these topics at monergism with both sides answers full showing. If you feel I have set up a straw man in my portrayal of your theology you should be able to answer a few easy questions on what it takes to receive Christ. If you can answer these questions and show that you still believe in salvation by grace alone, apart from any merit (or sheer chance) then I shall admit defeat. ("I don't know" doesn't count) Here are the questions:

I do not believe that salvation is by "Grace alone". I belief it is by FAITH ALONE, just the way Jesus says it in John chapter 3.

You are defeated by your lack of understanding, not by anything that I may say.

* Why is it that one unregenerate person believes the gospel and not another?

There are as many reasons as there are people, but some outstanding reasons are: The delivery of the gospel, the messenger that delivers the gospel, the false teachers that abound everywhere the gospel is, the condition of the unregenerate person i.e. the timing of the delivery of the gospel, (there are no atheists in foxholes, but many in penthouses)

* Was he able to generate a right thought, produce a right affection, create right belief, while at the same time man #2 did not have the natural wherewithal to come up with the faith to be saved?

You sell God short! God created man in His image, each and all of mankind is equipped the same, there are no spiritual differences in any man's ability to receive God and have faith!

* If they both made use of the same grace, did one make better use of it than the other?

Grace is Grace and it is a behavioral trait of the one possessing or exhibiting it. Grace is not a commodity that is dispensed like candy. While God is behaving toward man in accordance with HIS grace, every man has the same level playing field upon which to hear God's word and Believe unto faith in the Christ, God's only begotten son.

* If prevenient grace places us in a neutral state, then what motivates one man to believe and not another?

There is no such thing as "Prevenient Grace" There is God's grace and there is Man's grace. Grace is a behavioral attribute of the one possessing it. Grace cannot be given away as one would dispense candy. It is how one behaves toward another!

As for motivation, it is a myriad of reasons why one hears and responds and another does not. The maturity of the one verses another is a factor, but so is the environment in which one finds one's self. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven". Hence, the rich man and the beggar Lazarus! You see where each of them ended up.

* What principle in him made him choose what he did?

What principles make one become a musician, an engineer, a streetsweeper, an evangelist, a pilot, a doctor, etc. We humans make choices based on knowledge, and God says in scripture "for lack of knowledge my people perish". So, the principle is knowledge...we choose based on knowledge! Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God! The more of the word of God that you hear and believe, the greater your faith! Great principle, Praise God!

* If all men are neutral in prevenient grace was it by chance that one believed and not another?

There is no such thing as "Prevenient Grace"! For at least 2000 years, God has behaved toward mankind with Grace. If God had behaved in accordance with his Justice, there would be no man living, for all have sinned! God makes it possible for every man to hear His Word, but not ALL who hear believe, thus we have the parable of the Sower who sows the seed of faith. Some falls on hard ground and is eaten by the birds, some falls on rocky ground to sprout up, only to die in the heat of the sun, some on weedy ground only to sprout but be choked out by the cares of life, and then there is the seeds of faith that fall on good ground to sprout and grow strong producing much seed and good fruit.

* Is it the grace of God that makes you differ from unbelievers or is it your faith?

Stated earlier, Grace is the behavioral trait of the one possessing it. So you must rule out the concept "for by graced are ye saved"! It is not grace that saves...IT IS FAITH ALONE that makes man save-able!

 

[Helen]

Monergist, while I appreciate what you are trying to show, I think you are on the wrong track. You are assuming faith is something that only God can be the object of.

Consider -- if I see a chair and choose to sit down on it, it is because I believe it will hold me up. I would not sit if I did not believe it would hold me up.

I did not make the tree that grew the wood for the chair. I did not design the chair. I did not make the chair. I did not even buy the chair. I have not polished it or cleaned it or done anything to improve it in any way.

But I looked at it and said to myself "Ah, a chair! My legs are tired, so I will avail myself of the opportunity to sit down."

I did not even manufacture the opportunity!

But I saw the chair and believed it would hold me up and since my legs were tired, I acted on that belief. I acted in faith, with the chair and its presumed maker as the objects of my faith.

Did God create THAT faith? If so, then we ALL have it.

If not, we all still have it anyway. So wherever it comes from all men use and abuse it daily!

It is the object of faith which is the telling thing, is it not? When we CHOOSE to make the object of our faith God, via the truth that we know and have accepted, then HE acts on that and through it reaches out to each of us to draw us to Christ and salvation in Christ.

We did not manufacture God. We did not manufacture the opportunity to see the truth. We did not manufacture anything about what would happen after we responded, believing the truth. It is all of God.

But faith is something each man, woman, and child has -- it is the object of that faith which counts here, not the fact of faith itself.

 

[Helen]

Yelsew, I find myself in deep disagreement with you here: Paul clearly says that it is BY grace you have been saved, THROUGH faith. When we turn our faith to the object of God, then it is His grace which saves us.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Helen:
Yelsew, I find myself in deep disagreement with you here: Paul clearly says that it is BY grace you have been saved, THROUGH faith. When we turn our faith to the object of God, then it is His grace which saves us.

I trust you'll read my post to you on the "Calvinism and belief" topic.

 

[Helen]

Yes, I did, and responded, and stand by what I have said.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Helen:
Yes, I did, and responded, and stand by what I have said.

Then we are obviously not in agreement like I thought!

 

[Skandelon]

The following prayer is indeed a caricature that no Calvinist would dare pray, but is what a Calvinist would pray if he were consistent in his theology:

"God, I give you glory for everything, except for making a world where we would all inherit the guilt of the first man's sin and be born unable to even understand and receive your truth unless you choose to give us that capasity, but deciding to only give that capasity to a few while leaving the rest of humanity (including my son, my father, my brother, and my neighbors) to perish in an everlasting fire. All the while, revealing yourself as being a kind and merciful God who desires to gather all the world under his wings of Grace when we know that you don't really desire to save everyone just certain ones, why?... so you can show off your power. Yet, you condemned rulers throughout generations for doing these types of things, you yourself do them because you are God and justice for you is different than what you have revealed to us as justice in your Word......

 

[Skandelon]

If a Christian's faith is up to God why does Christ continually rebuke men for their lack of faith?

Shouldn't he condemn Himself for not suppling them with faith?

This is an ridiculous as a Mother and Father scolding a child for not know how to read before they ever taught him.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
If a Christian's faith is up to God why does Christ continually rebuke men for their lack of faith?

Shouldn't he condemn Himself for not suppling them with faith?

This is an ridiculous as a Mother and Father scolding a child for not know how to read before they ever taught him.

The truth is God has no faith to give to man!

He does however, give man the reasons to have faith.

 

[Skandelon]

Yelsew, I agree.

I would really love to hear a Calvinist answer this question. Why would God rebuke people for not having something he refuses to give them?

Does that make any sense???

 

[Ransom]

Here is another prayer that no synergist could pray if he were consistent in his theology:

"Lord, please save my friend Fred. Amen."

 

[Helen]

Why, Ransom?

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Here is another prayer that no synergist could pray if he were consistent in his theology:

"Lord, please save my friend Fred. Amen."

Could a Calvinist?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Yelsew, I agree.

I would really love to hear a Calvinist answer this question. Why would God rebuke people for not having something he refuses to give them?

Does that make any sense???

Thanks Skandalon, but I did not say that God refuses to give people faith, I said that God has no faith to give.

GOD IS FAITH-LESS, meaning that he is devoid of any faith to give to man. Now that is not to say that God is not faithful, because there is none who is more faithful than God. He simply has no faith to give to man.

Since God has no faith to give to man, where does man get the faith that God demands of him? When you resolve that issue, then you may begin to understand that MAN must respond to God of his own doing!

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

Why, Ransom?

Because according to Arminianism, whether or not Fred is saved isn't God's choice, it's Fred's. I shouldn't be asking God to save Fred, I should be spending my time trying to persuade Fred to "make a decision for Christ."

Asking God to save Fred is an acknowlegement that it is God who turns changes sinners' minds.

Harley4Him added:

Could a Calvinist?

Everyone who prays for someone else's salvation is, for that moment, an operational Calvinist.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Because according to Arminianism, whether or not Fred is saved isn't God's choice, it's Fred's. I shouldn't be asking God to save Fred, I should be spending my time trying to persuade Fred to "make a decision for Christ."

I agree. I don't ask for God to save people. I ask God to draw people, and for those people to be receptive and open.

Everyone who prays for someone else's salvation is, for that moment, an operational Calvinist.

And if Calvinism is true, then they are wasting their time, for that person's salvation was predetermined before the prayer (which was also inevitable) was spoken.

If that person is not predestined for salvation, then why would God predestine you to pray for their salvation? What would be the point?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Because according to Arminianism, whether or not Fred is saved isn't God's choice, it's Fred's. I shouldn't be asking God to save Fred, I should be spending my time trying to persuade Fred to "make a decision for Christ."

That is probably a good thing. Paul spent much more time "trying to persuade" others to follow Christ than he did praying for them to be saved.

Asking God to save Fred is an acknowlegement that it is God who turns changes sinners' minds.

Which is exactly what Arminians believe and is the same reason we pray. God is the one who get all the credit. Its His Holy Spirit sent gospel message, its His atonement, its His work! He chose to allow us a part in that work. We don't merely acknowledge that God is the one who does the work we go on to proclaim the gospel knowing that is the means he has selected for Fred to hear and have the opportunity to respond.

Everyone who prays for someone else's salvation is, for that moment, an operational Calvinist.

Only in your mind.

 

[Ransom]

Which is exactly what Arminians believe and is the same reason we pray.

How does God change a sinner's mind without violating his free will?