Would you dare pray this prayer,,,?

[Ransom]

BrianT said:

If that person is not predestined for salvation, then why would God predestine you to pray for their salvation? What would be the point?

Well, what's the point of anybody praying, then? Matt. 6:8 says the Father knows what you are going to pray before you do it. Praying to an omniscient God isn't a Calvinist problem. Maybe it's a problem for fatalists, but Calvinism isn't fatalism.

Why pray? Because God has commanded it. He created us for a relationship with him, and prayer is one way in which that relationship is established. He didn't have to; it is a privilege to be able to approach the throne of grace as his children.

Prayer acknowledges that God is sovereign. It is an act of submission to his will. I like the way Thomas Aquinas put it: we don't pray to change God's plan, but to ready us to receive what God has planned to give us.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Which is exactly what Arminians believe and is the same reason we pray.

How does God change a sinner's mind without violating his free will?

It's called the gospel.

 

[Ransom]

Ah, so you are just playing word games. When you say God changes people's minds, you actually mean people do. God doesn't actually do anything, he just sits back, lets the people do all the real work, and hopes for the best.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Which is exactly what Arminians believe and is the same reason we pray.

How does God change a sinner's mind without violating his free will?

He doesn't, Ransom, not without the sinner's desire to have his mind changed.

But God will do everything in heaven and on earth to convince that person that changing his mind is the right thing to do -- everything but violate the free will He gave that man.

When Barry and I pray for someone who is unsaved, we do not pray for God to save them per se, but for the person's heart to be softened to the Word, and for their eyes to be opened to the truth, and for them to see true Christians in their life and so see what Christ does in a life.

The one thing we know is that every human being alive longs to love and be loved. Christ offers both. And so if we live that way, we attract people to Christ, and we just pray our own personalities don't get in the way.

My Mom was not a believer. And Barry and I prayed right up until the day she died prayers along the lines of "God, please DO something which will help her see!" We can look back on it and see that the words were perhaps silly, because God loved her more than any of us ever could and had done everything possible to show her the truth and convince her to accept it. But I also know that God knew and understood what was in our hearts no matter how silly our words may have seemed.

And no, when one prays for another, one is NOT a Calvinist at that moment. I actually found myself resenting that highly.

God doesn't actually exercise any power over sinners, he just sits back and hopes for the best.

You are being ridiculous with that accusation. When I gave my own children choices I did not sit back and hope for the best! And I for sure am not better or more powerful than God! Use you head, Ransom, instead of just spitting out things like that.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Ah, so you are just playing word games. When you say God changes people's minds, you actually mean people do. God doesn't actually exercise any power over sinners, he just sits back and hopes for the best.

No, the gospel, which if you remember is God breathed, changes people's minds. We can speak the gospel but its not our words, they are the words of God. He gets the credit eventhough he chooses to let us be the messengers. Why? Because He is the Word.

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

He doesn't, Ransom, not without the sinner's desire to have his mind changed.

Why does an enemy of God (Rom. 8:7) desire to have his mind changed so he is a friend of God? What a contradictory web we weave when we depart from the plain teaching of Scripture.

When Barry and I pray for someone who is unsaved, we do not pray for God to save them per se, but for the person's heart to be softened to the Word,

Aha, so you do pray that God would violate someone's free will by changing his attitude to the Word from hostility to acceptance. You are soft-peddling it, but nonetheless, that is what you are saying.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Ransom]

Skandelon said:

No, the gospel, which if you remember is God breathed, changes people's minds.

If this is true, why do all confirmed atheists who read the Bible not automatically become Christians? Simple: Because there must be something operating on their hearts and minds, not merely the content of the message.

Without the power of God actively working to bring sinners to himself, the gospel is nothing but what the word literally means: a good story.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ransom:
[QB] BrianT said:

If that person is not predestined for salvation, then why would God predestine you to pray for their salvation? What would be the point?

Well, what's the point of anybody praying, then?

If Calvinism is true, I have no idea.

And I still don't know why God would predetermine you to pray for someone to be saved that wasn't predetermined to be saved. Do Calvinists pray for others to be saved? Why?

Maybe it's a problem for fatalists, but Calvinism isn't fatalism.

I *honestly* don't see how Calvinism isn't fatalism at it's core. And no one wants to explain to me how it's not.

Why pray? Because God has commanded it. He created us for a relationship with him, and prayer is one way in which that relationship is established. He didn't have to; it is a privilege to be able to approach the throne of grace as his children.

I agree.

Prayer acknowledges that God is sovereign. It is an act of submission to his will. I like the way Thomas Aquinas put it: we don't pray to change God's plan, but to ready us to receive what God has planned to give us.

Several months ago, Pastor Larry said something similar. I asked him: if Calvinism is true, how can one truly "submit"? Doesn't that require a conscious, independent, real *choice* (not an "inevitability") on your part? How can one "submit to his will", if *everything* one does is because of his ultimate will? Isn't "not submitting" also his will, ultimately?

That's what always trips me up about Calvinism: its supporters keep talking about predestination and inevitability and absolute sovereignty, but then talk as though I actually have a *choice* in the matter - to "submit", to "accept", etc. Yet the way I understand Calvinism, I can only accept Calvinism if I was predetermined to accept it - I can only "submit" if submission is inevitable - anything that I do is done because there was no alternative but for me to do it. I can't get past what appears to be a contradiction.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't get it.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
If this is true, why do all confirmed atheists who read the Bible not automatically become Christians? Simple: Because there must be something operating on their hearts and minds, not merely the content of the message.

You're right. Some won't "become Christians" even after hearing the gospel because something is "operating on their hearts and minds." There are many factors. Sin, life circumstances, the hardeness of their hearts due to past rebellion, stubbornness, pride. Yes, all these things could factor in as to reasons why someone might not choose to believe the gospel message. The content of the message is sometimes ignored due to various factors in a persons life, but its not because God didn't want them to be saved as Calvinism suggests.

Without the power of God actively working to bring sinners to himself, the gospel is nothing but what the word literally means: a good story.

This is what Calvinists just don't seem to get. Just what do you think God is "actively" doing in order to "bring sinners to himself?"

The means He chose was to send the gospel out through us, his messengers. That is God's active working, not some inward, secret, irresistable calling that the Bible doesn't even address. Your doctrine makes the gospel impotent. The word is powerful because it is the word of God and it doesn't need an extra calling to be effective, if it did I think the Bible might say something about it.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Helen said:

He doesn't, Ransom, not without the sinner's desire to have his mind changed.

Why does an enemy of God (Rom. 8:7) desire to have his mind changed so he is a friend of God? What a contradictory web we weave when we depart from the plain teaching of Scripture.

When Barry and I pray for someone who is unsaved, we do not pray for God to save them per se, but for the person's heart to be softened to the Word,

Aha, so you do pray that God would violate someone's free will by changing his attitude to the Word from hostility to acceptance. You are soft-peddling it, but nonetheless, that is what you are saying.

Thank you for proving my point.

Ransom, I don't know how old you are or how many people you know. But I'm getting along a bit now -- I will be 56 on leap year's day this year (or 14, however you choose to consider it!), and I know people who want to have their minds changed about things. They are miserable the way they are and are looking for something true enough not only to believe in but to change their minds for them, or cause them to change their minds.

I was recently in that very position about one of my children. She did not talk to me for two years (she is alost 25 now and married). What turned out when she came stomping home before Christmas to 'confront' me about something was that there had been a giant misunderstanding due to one of the other kids! A really giant one. And when I had gotten that letter of 'separation' two years ago, all I could do was wait. And the years went by and I remembered the daughter who had seemed to be such a good Christian and who was giving every evidence of having abandon her earlier faith and morality and everything! And I decided that I would have to be willing to understand that I never really knew her and that she might honestly be throwing everything she had been taught about God back in His face, so to speak. I was angry about her decisions and actions and was not thinking well of her.

But I WANTED to think well of her. I MISSED thinking well of her. I missed her! Or the her I thought I had known. I wanted, so badly, for my mind to be changed in this regard. I wanted reasons to change it.

It did happen and the problems have been ironed out and all forgiven and one of my very best friends, my daughter, is back in my life. But I do know how it is to WANT your mind to be changed; to want the reasons to be presented to you which will cause you to change it.

And it happens with many in regard to Christ, too. I've seen it happen, I've talked to people who want it to happen. But it hasn't happened yet, as per the time of that conversation.

WHY would an enemy of God want to have his mind changed? Because he is miserable, that's why. Because he sees Christians who have joy and peace and he is jealous and wishes he could be like them, and wants some kind of reason to be presented which will help him along that path.

Now, if you don't mind, I will be praying for your softened heart and attitude here. I doubt seriously I will be violating your free will, but I do hope that God will put some pressure on you for a change in that direction!

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

Ransom, I don't know how old you are or how many people you know. But I'm getting along a bit now -- I will be 56 on leap year's day this year (or 14, however you choose to consider it!), and I know people who want to have their minds changed about things yada yada yada . . .

Once again you appeal to your personal experience as though it is a valid lens through which to interpret Holy Writ. I answer you with scripture, you come back with personal stories.

Since my experience is not your experience, I reject your interpretation.

 

[Ransom]

Skandelon said:

You're right. Some won't "become Christians" even after hearing the gospel because something is "operating on their hearts and minds." There are many factors. Sin, life circumstances, the hardeness of their hearts due to past rebellion, stubbornness, pride. Yes, all these things could factor in as to reasons why someone might not choose to believe the gospel message.

So everything operates on the unbeliever but the power of God, eh?

Just what do you think God is "actively" doing in order to "bring sinners to himself?"

Loving them and turning them from dead sinners into living saints in Christ (Eph. 2:4-5).

 

[Helen]

Ransom, God used people's experiences to help them understand a great deal about Him.

Noah went through the Flood.

Abraham had to obey to the point of sacrificing his son.

Gideon learned from fleeces.

Jesus used parables so the people could associate truths from their personal experiences.

You seem to strongly object to that. I can't help it. God has taught me through my life, too. I have seen people who want to change. I have been in that position myself.

And the Bible also refers to them. Please, read your Bible. Look for these people. They are there.

People who want to change are those who end up repenting. John baptized a lot of them.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Which is exactly what Arminians believe and is the same reason we pray.

How does God change a sinner's mind without violating his free will?

Persuasion!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Ah, so you are just playing word games. When you say God changes people's minds, you actually mean people do. God doesn't actually do anything, he just sits back, lets the people do all the real work, and hopes for the best.

What energy is expended in changing your mind? There is no work to it!

Don't confuse yourself with the idea that thought or memory or "persuasion" requires one to "work". I simply ain't so!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Skandelon said:

No, the gospel, which if you remember is God breathed, changes people's minds.

If this is true, why do all confirmed atheists who read the Bible not automatically become Christians? Simple: Because there must be something operating on their hearts and minds, not merely the content of the message.

Without the power of God actively working to bring sinners to himself, the gospel is nothing but what the word literally means: a good story.

An atheist is merely one who closed his mind to things of Heaven. So no matter what he reads or hears about heaven or a gospel, his mind is closed to that. Jesus said, behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyman hear and will open the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon said:

You're right. Some won't "become Christians" even after hearing the gospel because something is "operating on their hearts and minds." There are many factors. Sin, life circumstances, the hardeness of their hearts due to past rebellion, stubbornness, pride. Yes, all these things could factor in as to reasons why someone might not choose to believe the gospel message.

You said: So everything operates on the unbeliever but the power of God, eh?

WHAT?!? What is the "power of God" in salvation? Paul says, "The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation." If the gospel is "operating on the unbeliever" then that is the SAME as the "power of God" operating on an unbeliever. This is exactly what I'm talking about, Calvinists can't see the forrest for the trees. They can't see the plain and simple truth that the gospel itself IS GOD'S POWER IN SAVING THE LOST!

Skandelon said:
Just what do you think God is "actively" doing in order to "bring sinners to himself?"

You said: Loving them and turning them from dead sinners into living saints in Christ (Eph. 2:4-5).

You're avoiding the point. What are the means God has selected to "turn them into living saints?"
The answer is the power preaching of the gospel message!!

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

Ransom, God used people's experiences to help them understand a great deal about Him.

Well, do let me know when your personal experiences are canonized as Scripture alongside Noah's, Abraham's and Gideon's, won't you?

When that happens, I'll be sure to pay them the attention they deserve.

 

[Skandelon]

Ransom,

You are ignoring the means.

We agree as to the ends, but what about the means.
(read my post just above your last one)

 

[Ransom]

Originally posted by Skandelon:

You are ignoring the means.

No, I am not ignoring you, my current time is limited and so I have to pick and choose what I can respond to at the minute.

The human means God uses are preachers and the message preached (Rom 10:14-15), which does not contradict anything I have already said.

But merely preaching the Gospel at someone is, in and of itself, insufficient. How God turns the unbelieving heart of stone into a believing heart of flesh, I don't know. How did God turn Lazarus from a corpse into a living, breathing man? Who knows? The mechanics of miracles are a divine mystery.