Would you dare pray this prayer,,,?

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Skandelon said:

Just because something is sufficient doesn't mean its applied.

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, I direct your attention to the centre ring . . . The Amazing Self-Refuting Sentence!

Nitpicking basic English only bogs down the discussion.

It is only through "basic English" and proper definition that the discussion can be held at all. But, if clarity and precision aren't important to you, your point isn't particularly important to me. It's been a slice.

Perhaps, but when you are speaking of the Atonement for sins that Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ could alone provide, then you are speaking of an atonement that WAS APPLIED to ALL SINS in ALL times.

It is THAT ONCE-FOR-ALL ATONEMENT that is not dependent upon man's belief, because it was DIVINE, DIRECT intervention into the course of man's history by God! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE COVERED BY IT WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE! It is by this atonement that God the Son made it possible for man to be saved through faith ALONE! NO WORKS, NO WEALTH, NO PERSONALITY, NOTHING BUT FAITH!

 

[Skandelon]

Ransom,

It is still apparent to me that you have not ever provided an answer to the verse out of Romans 1 concerning the Gospel being the power of God unto Salvation.

 

[Ian Major]

If I spent the money I had for rent on drink and horses, would my landlord be unjust in demanding payment, knowing I had nothing to give? In Adam I lost my innocence and my ability to give God His due. Is He unjust to still demand it? Or unjust if He choses to pay the rent Himself for some and not for others?

In Him

Ian

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
If I spent the money I had for rent on drink and horses, would my landlord be unjust in demanding payment, knowing I had nothing to give? In Adam I lost my innocence and my ability to give God His due. Is He unjust to still demand it? Or unjust if He choses to pay the rent Himself for some and not for others?

In Him

Ian

Not a good analogy, Ian.

In Adam, you inherited disobedience.

If you are a father, what do you do to your children when they disobey you? Do you kill them? Do you look upon them as being different than they were when born to you? NO, you accept them as they are. Even so, you may punish their behavior, but you find every possible way to keep them in your home and part of your family.

Do you think our Heavenly father is not doing the same with us? Since He established early on that the penalty for sin is death, I believe that He repented and sent his only begotten Son, Jesus to pay that penalty for us. That is called the Atonement. In Paying the penalty, Jesus released man from the penalty, so man is no longer judged by sin, but only by faith.

I am punished through the death of Jesus, can I do any less then than have complete faith in Him and the promises he made to me through the Word of God?

 

[Ian Major]

Yelsew, you said, 'Do you think our Heavenly father is not doing the same with us? Since He established early on that the penalty for sin is death, I believe that He repented and sent his only begotten Son, Jesus to pay that penalty for us. That is called the Atonement. In Paying the penalty, Jesus released man from the penalty, so man is no longer judged by sin, but only by faith. '

That is a serious misrepresentation of God's dealings with man. What does Scripture say about God's attitude to sin and sinners?

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

Ephesians 5
5For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3
5Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Remember also that Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that if they continued in their unbelief they would die in their sins - unbelief is not the only sin, it is the one sin which brings all the other sins with it to the Judgement.

A final example of a specific sin that will be punished in hell:
Matthew 18:6
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The only people released from the penalty of sin are the elect, those whom Christ has loved and washed from their sins in His own blood. Rev. 1:5.

The rest remain in their sins, and pay for them eternally in the lake of fire.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ransom]

Skandelon said:

It is still apparent to me that you have not ever provided an answer to the verse out of Romans 1 concerning the Gospel being the power of God unto Salvation.

Just because you don't like the answer you got, does not mean it wasn't given.

 

[Skandelon]

All you said in regard to that verse is that I shouldn't make it the end-all and be-all of my doctrine.

That says NOTHING about YOUR DOCTRINE!!!

In fact, it only concedes that this verse does support my doctrine. You have to deal with it!

 

[Yelsew]

Ian,
In case you haven't noticed, the scriptures that you quoted are all written by the same author.

Now consider that throughout the Old Testament, the judgment of man was based upon sin, and that is why God allowed an Atonement for sin, so that man who sins is not under the penalty of the sin because an animal was slaughtered in the place of the man! But God said that it is not the slaughter of animals that pleases him, so he made provision for a final ONCE-for-ALL atonement through the blood of the man that He begat through a virgin maid. Then we have the New Testament. The message of the New Testament is FAITH in the Son of God, the Christ! Those who have it, have everlasting life, those who do not are cast into the lake of fire. Not for sins, but for lack of faith. Even those who have faith sin, but they are not cast into the lake of fire as those without faith are. Sin is not the basis for judgment!

Yes, sin is still wrong and if one continues in sin after coming to faith, there is no evidence of faith. Faith like that is dead faith because live faith empowers one to overcome sin, that is, to repent from sinning. If one does not repent, the sin remains and erodes the faith, even to the point of complete loss of faith. Confession of sin brings forgiveness and renewal to the one who confesses. Renewal brings increased strength in avoiding the temptation to sin, thus leading to and resulting in righteousness.

You said,

"The only people released from the penalty of sin are the elect, those whom Christ has loved and washed from their sins in His own blood. Rev. 1:5."

Well Revelation 1:5 is part of John's address of greeting to his readers, as you can see in full context.

Revelation 1:4-8. John, to the seven churches of Asia: grace and peace to you from him who is, who was, and who is to come, from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the First-born from the dead, the highest of earthly kings. He loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood, and made us a Kingdom of Priests to serve his God and Father; to him, then, be glory and power for ever and ever. Amen. Look, he is coming on the clouds; everyone will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the races of the earth will mourn over him. Indeed this shall be so. Amen. `I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

In its context, it just doesn't mean what you want it to mean. You see, those who are washed in and by the Blood of Jesus are those "whosoever's" who believe in Him, just as He said in John 3:16.

Sin is not the basis for being cast into the lake of fire, the second death. It is lack of faith! FAITH, or the Lack thereof is not sin, FAITH is a condition of the human spirit. Those who lack faith are quite simply not acceptable to God! Thus they are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14,15.

 

[Ransom]

Skandelon:

In fact, it only concedes that this verse does support my doctrine. You have to deal with it!

Apparently you are hard of hearing. I will repeat myself: Just because you don't like the answer you receive, does not mean one was not given.

The Gospel is the power of God to save; that is, it is the God-ordained means by which his saving power is given to sinners.

Are you satisfied now, or should I waste more of my time posting multiple redundant messages for the sake of the ADD crowd?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
The Gospel is the power of God to save; that is, it is the God-ordained means by which his saving power is given to sinners.

Are you satisfied now, or should I waste more of my time posting multiple redundant messages for the sake of the ADD crowd?

I think you owe me an apology. I've read back through this entire thread and you never said this before. You act as if you have given me this answer when I asked before, but you have not. So your implications that I'm ADD or have asked you to repeat your answers is actually a reflection upon your own deameanor in this thread.

Now to your answer...

What? Are you saying that the gospel itself is not really the power unto salvation as the text clearly states? It's just the means by which the power is given? So, what is the power of God unto salvation, if indeed its not the gospel? Is it the irresistable calling? Where is that in this text?

 

[Ian Major]

Yelsew, you said,'In case you haven't noticed, the scriptures that you quoted are all written by the same author.'

Er, Yes, I did. What is your point? Are you saying that it's only one man's opinion? The real author is the Holy Spirit. These are God's words. It is God who says, 'Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience'.

Yet you say, 'Sin is not the basis for being cast into the lake of fire, the second death. It is lack of faith! FAITH, or the Lack thereof is not sin, FAITH is a condition of the human spirit. Those who lack faith are quite simply not acceptable to God! Thus they are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14,15.'

Wow! Unbelief not a sin! Does not the Scripture teach that the wages on sin is death? Historic Christianity has always taught that the wicked dead are punished in the lake of fire for their sins, which include unbelief. But you say the lake of fire is only filled with sinless people. Unbelief, a non-sin in your view , is the basis of their condemnation.

BTW, Is this view shared by other 'Free-will' folk on this list?

Maybe this view is a consequence of believing that Christ atoned for the sins of every man without exception: since the sins have been paid for, they can't be the basis of eternal punishment? If Christ bore Judas' sins on the tree, Judas won't be punished for his betrayal. Unrepentant murderers, rapists, child-sex killers, Hitler, Antichrist, will not answer for their sins.

Yelsew, please explain the Pauline texts I gave, or confirm that you reject their authority. I'm puzzled as to where you are getting your ideas.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ransom]

Skandelon said:

I've read back through this entire thread and you never said this before.

It has been implicit in pretty much everything I have said about this thread.

What? Are you saying that the gospel itself is not really the power unto salvation as the text clearly states? It's just the means by which the power is given?

Ever heard of synecdoche?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ransom:

It has been implicit in pretty much everything I have said about this thread.

Can you point those implicit parts out to me, I must have missed them...you know because of the fact that I'm ADD and all.

Ever heard of synecdoche?

Yes, but what in this text leads you to think that Paul is merely substituting a more inclusive term?

What in the entire Bible leads you to believe that the gospel doesn't have enough power to bring a lost soul to Christ? There are many texts we can point to that would have to be explained away as "synecdoche" because they point to the power of the message, or the spoken word. Where in scripture does it say something secret, inward and irresistable must precede that message for it to have effect?

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Harley4Him said:

Your analogy is flawed.

Thank you. In fact it was not my analogy, but Scripture's. Since you have admitted to denying this Scriptural truth, further discussion with you on this issue would be pointless.

It is true that discussions with you about what Scripture actually teaches are pointless as you seem to care so little for what it actually says, by placing your analogy above it.

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by Ransom:
By saying that human behaviour can be changed by "effective persuasion" you deny what God has affirmed.

Ransom, your own admission that you oppose God's Word is regrettable.

Repent of your declaration that these words are false:

let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance- for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

Listen, my son, to your father's instruction
and do not forsake your mother's teaching. They will be a garland to grace your head and a chain to adorn your neck.

 

[Ransom]

Harley4Him said:

Repent of your declaration that these words are false:

I will do no such thing, and the other participants of this site may judge for themselves which of us is the real liar.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

[ February 04, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Hamtramck_Mike ]

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
Yelsew, I agree.

I would really love to hear a Calvinist answer this question. Why would God rebuke people for not having something he refuses to give them?

Does that make any sense???

Thanks Skandalon, but I did not say that God refuses to give people faith, I said that God has no faith to give.

GOD IS FAITH-LESS, meaning that he is devoid of any faith to give to man. Now that is not to say that God is not faithful, because there is none who is more faithful than God. He simply has no faith to give to man.

Since God has no faith to give to man, where does man get the faith that God demands of him? When you resolve that issue, then you may begin to understand that MAN must respond to God of his own doing! </font>[/QUOTE]You cannot be serious Yelsew, please tell me that you do not really believe this!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Let's back off the questioning of one another's salvation. That is unnecessary. Focus on teh topic at hand.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Let's back off the questioning of one another's salvation. That is unnecessary. Focus on teh topic at hand.

My apologies, I own up.