I secretly wish for Spitfire to respond likewise .
You had an open thread Abie so I just thought the cat
had your tongue is all.
own post, when I intended to hit the "edit" button.
I just didn't feel like explaining at the time. 8oD
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- Thread starter Ben W
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You had an open thread Abie so I just thought the cat
had your tongue is all.
own post, when I intended to hit the "edit" button.
I just didn't feel like explaining at the time. 8oD
I hope you don't mind if I say that your experience
is limited. I am a member of a synagogue-full of
people who don't believe that. 8o) And we are
affiliated with many others who do not believe or
teach that. If I depended upon my own works, I
would be in Big Trouble. Did you notice my
number of posts and the short period of time I
have been here? 8oD And I certanly don't do
everything right or think I do; I am horribly aware
of my short-comings.
Your remarks refer to this quote of Victory Leader's:
"Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
My experience with Sabbath keepers is that they try and work their way into heaven never accepting the rest of the Lord which is a faith based relationship with Jesus Christ."
Your remark: "My experience with people from Tennessee, is that they are ignorant and the product of inbreeding."
This is an offensive racist uncalled for remark. Victory Leader is not of the same persuasion that I am, but I happen to agree with what he says, (pertaining to SDA's) and am willing to defend it. I do not find anything offensive in what he said. In fact it is quite accurate. If that causes you to make such racist and bigoted comments then maybe you should refrain from posting. In your post, Feb. 16, 6:26 a.m. to me, you called me anti-semitic no less then nine times. In our country we have "hate laws," under which one can be prosecuted. If you had published that here, (say in a newspaper) you could be charged under the hate crimes act. Your conduct is ungodly, and unbecoming of one who calls herself a Christian. I admit that I use sarcasm in my posts, but I do not stoop to call people racists, and such names as you have in these recent posts.
If you have nothing better to say in defense of your own faith, then maybe you should stop posting.
DHK
Originally posted by Abiyah:
Proud, yes. But also divisive. The Corinthian church was the most divisive and carnal church mentioned in the New Testament. Their argument over which leader to follow had nothing to do with the Sabbath Day, but rather over who was the most spiritual, which led directly to carnality. (1Cor.3:1)
Yes, Christ went into the synagogues on the Sabbath. That was before He died and rose again. Believers meet on the first day to honor his resurrection.
In Acts 13:43,48, Paul was on his first missionary journey, and was in Antioch. At that time he did go to the Jews first, then to the Greeks (or Gentiles). But Antioch is not Corinth.
Here is a history of the church at Corinth from Acts 18:
18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Romeand came unto them.
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
He continues to preach at Corinth
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Notice in verse four how he preaches in the synagogue every sabbath, persuading both Jews and Greeks. But in verses 5 and 6 the Jews oppose themselves and they oppose Paul, and blaspheme. Paul therefore shakes the dust from and from that time goes to the gentiles.
He enters a man's house, named Justus, and from there preaches. He teaches from there for a year and a half. The church actually began more from the house than it did from the synagogue. That is where Paul was able to remain peacefully and do his real work of discipleship in the city of Corinth.
You are making unwarranted assumptions. In Acts it says that Paul left the synagogue and went into a house, but it does not say that he continued to preach on the Sabbath. In fact it emphatically says that he turned himself from the Jews and went to the Gentiles. The assumption you make is that the believers met on the Sabbath. That is pure speculation. Once a Jew became a Christian, he was no longer a Jew, so to speak. Paul himself makes the difference:
(1 Cor 10:32 KJV) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
He names three groups of people in the Bible: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God. Which group do you belong to? Are you a Jew? Are you a Gentile? Or, Are you a Christian? Once you are a Christian you no longer are a Jew or a Gentile for we are one in Christ. The Jews left much of their culture behind, and definitely left the law behind. Christ had come to fulfill the law. For them "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." (2Cor.5:17).
It was not necessary to meet on the Sabbath, and there is no indication that they did.
I am fully aware when the Sabbath day starts and ends, and how the Jews reckoned time. That is not the problem. That is the way that you want to solve what seems to be a problem for you. If it were that easy, then why wouldn't the Holy Spirit just cause Luke to write Sabbath instead of "first day." The answer is because it wasn't the sabbath; it was the first day that they met on. (I am beginnig to sound like a broken record player). The phrase "first day" is deliberately used to coincide with its many uses in the gospels describing the time of the resurrection. This is why they met on the first day--in remembrance of the resurrection.
An assumption--not proveable.
No, they went to Mass instead and confessed their sins to the priest, and everything was in Latin--NOT!!
But just as proveable as what you just set forth.
The reason being is that these people either were not Jews in the first place (as in Corinth), or if they were Jews at one time, were no longer Jews now. They were not Jews; they were Christians. A Christian service is not necessarily patterned after what they did in the Old Testament. This is another assumption on your part. Once they left Judaism they were outcasts from it. They had a new life to live, and many chnages took place in their lives. Temple worship was completely out. Most met in places like the catacombs (graveyards), houses, in the open (when it was safe to do so), or just where ever they could. There was a great persecution taking place in those early years.
And according to Exodus 31, it was given specifically to the Jewish nation forever, and to no one else.
Since the Scriptures explicitly teach that the Sabbath is a sign for the Jewish nation, the principle taught in Genesis is that God gave man one day out of seven to rest, as He rested. Paul points out in Romans 14 that it really doesn't matter what day it is that you choose.
DHK
Oh, DHK. This is so sad. All through your post,
you continuously accuse me of speculation and
assumption, yet throughout it, you do exactly
what you accuse me of doing.
Do you seriously not get this? They were told to
do as our Lord did. What did He do? He observed
Sabbath. "Do you think I came to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to
fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth
pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall
pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Has
heaven an earth passed away? Has all He foretold
been accomplished?
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these
commandments, and teaches others to do the
same, shall be called least in the kingdom of
heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
What are you doing? What are you teaching?
In what Bible did you read this? It is tradition,
not Truth, that they worshiped on Sunday each
week in order to honor His resurrection. Some
cal this the Lord's Day; the Bible does not.
The Bible calls judgment day the Lord's Day.
Interesting.
Paul was called out to be an apostle to the
Gentiles. Of course, when he traveled on his
many missionary trips, there were not synagogues
everywhere he went. Of course, when there was
no synagogue, he did not attend. But where does
it say that he did not observe Sabbath? Where
does it say he taught the Gentile believers not
to observe Sabbath? One does not need either
a Temple or a synagogue to observe Sabbath.
It says he went to te Gentiles; it does not say he
quit observing the Sabbath.
Ah! Then I get it! The writer of Romans erred,
when writing to Gentiles, when he wrote that
new believers were to be grafted into Israel;
he meant to write that Jews must be grafted
into the Church. 8o)
Speculation. You have not read your history. 8o)
Won't you be surprised when you see our Lord
and find that He was a Jew, reared as a Jew,
educated as a Jew, and cicumcised? Won't
you be surprised when the trumpet blows,
and it is not a modern trumpet but a shofar?
Won't you be surprised when we all must do
the Feasts as He will command or suffer the
consequences? What is that name upon His
thigh -- a tattoo? 8o)
Sorry. I am tired of explaining that one. 8o)
Totally proveable. Read your Bible, history, etc.
You simply are refusing to believe because it
does not match your tradition, DHK. I do
understand, though. Tradition is difficult to break,
especially when you must go against your friends,
all you had been taught, and your church. I know.
Again, you ignore history.
You simply ignore history.
According to the Bible, we are grafted into Israel
and have the opportunity to enjoy all the gifts
given them, but they also come with the
responsibilities given Israel. Do you think it was
only Jews who stood at the mountain and received
the commands, saying they would do as the Lord
said? If you do, you need to reread.
Do you think the promises and responsibilities
made by our God in the Law and Prophets were
only to the Jews? If so, you need to reread.
So you believe that although our God
commanded us to rest on the Sabbath, it is all
right to ignore that. Well, DHK, you have
apparently made up your mind for now. What more
can be said? 8o)
[ February 17, 2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
you continuously accuse me of speculation and
assumption, yet throughout it, you do exactly
what you accuse me of doing.
Do you seriously not get this? They were told to
do as our Lord did. What did He do? He observed
Sabbath. "Do you think I came to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to
fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth
pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall
pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Has
heaven an earth passed away? Has all He foretold
been accomplished?
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these
commandments, and teaches others to do the
same, shall be called least in the kingdom of
heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
What are you doing? What are you teaching?
In what Bible did you read this? It is tradition,
not Truth, that they worshiped on Sunday each
week in order to honor His resurrection. Some
cal this the Lord's Day; the Bible does not.
The Bible calls judgment day the Lord's Day.
Interesting.
DHK -- In Acts 13:43,48, Paul was on his first missionary journey, and was in Antioch. At that time he did go to the Jews first, then to the Greeks (or Gentiles). But Antioch is not Corinth.
Here is a history of the church at Corinth from Acts 18:
18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
He continues to preach at Corinth
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Notice in verse four how he preaches in the synagogue every sabbath, persuading both Jews and Greeks. But in verses 5 and 6 the Jews oppose themselves and they oppose Paul, and blaspheme. Paul therefore shakes the dust from and from that time goes to the gentiles.
He enters a man's house, named Justus, and from there preaches. He teaches from there for a year and a half. The church actually began more from the house than it did from the synagogue. That is where Paul was able to remain peacefully and do his real work of discipleship in the city of Corinth.
Paul was called out to be an apostle to the
Gentiles. Of course, when he traveled on his
many missionary trips, there were not synagogues
everywhere he went. Of course, when there was
no synagogue, he did not attend. But where does
it say that he did not observe Sabbath? Where
does it say he taught the Gentile believers not
to observe Sabbath? One does not need either
a Temple or a synagogue to observe Sabbath.
It says he went to te Gentiles; it does not say he
quit observing the Sabbath.
Ah! Then I get it! The writer of Romans erred,
when writing to Gentiles, when he wrote that
new believers were to be grafted into Israel;
he meant to write that Jews must be grafted
into the Church. 8o)
Speculation. You have not read your history. 8o)
Won't you be surprised when you see our Lord
and find that He was a Jew, reared as a Jew,
educated as a Jew, and cicumcised? Won't
you be surprised when the trumpet blows,
and it is not a modern trumpet but a shofar?
Won't you be surprised when we all must do
the Feasts as He will command or suffer the
consequences? What is that name upon His
thigh -- a tattoo? 8o)
Sorry. I am tired of explaining that one. 8o)
Totally proveable. Read your Bible, history, etc.
You simply are refusing to believe because it
does not match your tradition, DHK. I do
understand, though. Tradition is difficult to break,
especially when you must go against your friends,
all you had been taught, and your church. I know.
Again, you ignore history.
You simply ignore history.
According to the Bible, we are grafted into Israel
and have the opportunity to enjoy all the gifts
given them, but they also come with the
responsibilities given Israel. Do you think it was
only Jews who stood at the mountain and received
the commands, saying they would do as the Lord
said? If you do, you need to reread.
Do you think the promises and responsibilities
made by our God in the Law and Prophets were
only to the Jews? If so, you need to reread.
You misunderstand Romans 14. It is that simple.
So you believe that although our God
commanded us to rest on the Sabbath, it is all
right to ignore that. Well, DHK, you have
apparently made up your mind for now. What more
can be said? 8o)
[ February 17, 2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Your remarks refer to this quote of Victory Leader's:
"Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
My experience with Sabbath keepers is that they try and work their way into heaven never accepting the rest of the Lord which is a faith based relationship with Jesus Christ."
Your remark: "My experience with people from Tennessee, is that they are ignorant and the product of inbreeding."
This is an offensive racist uncalled for remark. Victory Leader is not of the same persuasion that I am, but I happen to agree with what he says, (pertaining to SDA's) and am willing to defend it. I do not find anything offensive in what he said. In fact it is quite accurate. If that causes you to make such racist and bigoted comments then maybe you should refrain from posting. In your post, Feb. 16, 6:26 a.m. to me, you called me anti-semitic no less then nine times. In our country we have "hate laws," under which one can be prosecuted. If you had published that here, (say in a newspaper) you could be charged under the hate crimes act. Your conduct is ungodly, and unbecoming of one who calls herself a Christian. I admit that I use sarcasm in my posts, but I do not stoop to call people racists, and such names as you have in these recent posts.
If you have nothing better to say in defense of your own faith, then maybe you should stop posting.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK,
Get a life.
There is a HUGE difference in YOU posting all of those anti semitic remarks, and me saying something, that I do not believe, do not think, and do not mean, in a sarcastic way to prove a point.
What I said was in JEST.
How do you explain away all of those anti semitic comments that you MEANT?
I am sure that VL knows that I was not seriously slamming people from TN, only showing him through his own tactics how crude blanket stereotyping is.
GET A GRIP
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Here is some proof that there were once some honest people out there:
Roman Catholic and Protestant Confessions about Sunday
The vast majority of Christian churches today teach the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, as a time for rest and worship. Yet it is generally known and freely admitted that the early Christians observed the seventh day as the Sabbath. How did this change come about?
History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
In the second portion of this booklet are quotations from Protestants. Undoubtedly all of these noted clergymen, scholars, and writers kept Sunday, but they all frankly admit that there is no Biblical authority for a first-day sabbath.
Roman Catholic Confessions
James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.
"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.'
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!
"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"
The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."
Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."
Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.
"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."
Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975),Chicago, Illinois.
"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.
"It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."
T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18,1884.
"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."
Protestant Confessions
Protestant theologians and preachers from a wide spectrum of denominations have been quite candid in admitting that there is no Biblical authority for observing Sunday as a sabbath.
Anglican/Episcopal
Isaac Williams, Plain Sermons on the Catechism , vol. 1, pp.334, 336.
"And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day .... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it."
Canon Eyton, The Ten Commandments , pp. 52, 63, 65.
"There is no word, no hint, in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday .... into the rest of Sunday no divine law enters.... The observance of Ash Wednesday or Lent stands exactly on the same footing as the observance of Sunday."
Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday .
We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."
Baptist
Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner , Nov.16, 1893.
"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not.
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history . . . . But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"
William Owen Carver, The Lord's Day in Our Day , p. 49.
"There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance."
Congregationalist
Dr. R. W. Dale, The Ten Commandments (New York: Eaton &Mains), p. 127-129.
" . . . it is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath - . . 'Me Sabbath was founded on a specific Divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday .... There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday."
Timothy Dwight, Theology: Explained and Defended (1823), Ser. 107, vol. 3, p. 258.
" . . . the Christian Sabbath [Sunday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath."
Disciples of Christ
Alexander Campbell, The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824,vol. 1. no. 7, p. 164.
"'But,' say some, 'it was changed from the seventh to the first day.' Where? when? and by whom? No man can tell. No; it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives' fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage changed it who changes times and laws ex officio - I think his name is Doctor Antichrist.'
First Day Observance , pp. 17, 19.
"The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change."
Lutheran
The Sunday Problem , a study book of the United Lutheran Church (1923), p. 36.
"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."
Augsburg Confession of Faith art. 28; written by Melanchthon, approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, ed. (1 91 1), p. 63.
"They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, a shaving been changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!"
Dr. Augustus Neander, The History of the Christian Religion and Church Henry John Rose, tr. (1843), p. 186.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."
John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday , pp. 15, 16.
"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect."
Methodist
Harris Franklin Rall, Christian Advocate, July 2, 1942, p.26.
"Take the matter of Sunday. There are indications in the New Testament as to how the church came to keep the first day of the week as its day of worship, but there is no passage telling Christians to keep that day, or to transfer the Jewish Sabbath to that day."
John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ed. (New York: Eaton & Mains), Sermon 25,vol. 1, p. 221.
"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
Dwight L. Moody
D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"
Presbyterian
T. C. Blake, D.D., Theology Condensed, pp.474, 475.
"The Sabbath is a part of the decalogue - the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution . . . . Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand . . . . The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath."
source
SO let's see.
The Bible says the Seventh Day is Holy.
The Catholic Church says the Sabbath is Saturday.
Several Protestant denominations admit that Saturday is the Sabbath, NOT Sunday.
SO, WHY are people still keeping Sunday?
The Catholic Church asked the Protestants that very question.
Here is more evidence, and something I find rather amusing:
What a Mother says to her Children!!
God Bless
Roman Catholic and Protestant Confessions about Sunday
The vast majority of Christian churches today teach the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, as a time for rest and worship. Yet it is generally known and freely admitted that the early Christians observed the seventh day as the Sabbath. How did this change come about?
History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
In the second portion of this booklet are quotations from Protestants. Undoubtedly all of these noted clergymen, scholars, and writers kept Sunday, but they all frankly admit that there is no Biblical authority for a first-day sabbath.
Roman Catholic Confessions
James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.
"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.'
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!
"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"
The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."
Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."
Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.
"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."
Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975),Chicago, Illinois.
"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.
"It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."
T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18,1884.
"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."
Protestant Confessions
Protestant theologians and preachers from a wide spectrum of denominations have been quite candid in admitting that there is no Biblical authority for observing Sunday as a sabbath.
Anglican/Episcopal
Isaac Williams, Plain Sermons on the Catechism , vol. 1, pp.334, 336.
"And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day .... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it."
Canon Eyton, The Ten Commandments , pp. 52, 63, 65.
"There is no word, no hint, in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday .... into the rest of Sunday no divine law enters.... The observance of Ash Wednesday or Lent stands exactly on the same footing as the observance of Sunday."
Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday .
We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."
Baptist
Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner , Nov.16, 1893.
"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not.
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history . . . . But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"
William Owen Carver, The Lord's Day in Our Day , p. 49.
"There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance."
Congregationalist
Dr. R. W. Dale, The Ten Commandments (New York: Eaton &Mains), p. 127-129.
" . . . it is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath - . . 'Me Sabbath was founded on a specific Divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday .... There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday."
Timothy Dwight, Theology: Explained and Defended (1823), Ser. 107, vol. 3, p. 258.
" . . . the Christian Sabbath [Sunday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath."
Disciples of Christ
Alexander Campbell, The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824,vol. 1. no. 7, p. 164.
"'But,' say some, 'it was changed from the seventh to the first day.' Where? when? and by whom? No man can tell. No; it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives' fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage changed it who changes times and laws ex officio - I think his name is Doctor Antichrist.'
First Day Observance , pp. 17, 19.
"The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change."
Lutheran
The Sunday Problem , a study book of the United Lutheran Church (1923), p. 36.
"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."
Augsburg Confession of Faith art. 28; written by Melanchthon, approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, ed. (1 91 1), p. 63.
"They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, a shaving been changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!"
Dr. Augustus Neander, The History of the Christian Religion and Church Henry John Rose, tr. (1843), p. 186.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."
John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday , pp. 15, 16.
"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect."
Methodist
Harris Franklin Rall, Christian Advocate, July 2, 1942, p.26.
"Take the matter of Sunday. There are indications in the New Testament as to how the church came to keep the first day of the week as its day of worship, but there is no passage telling Christians to keep that day, or to transfer the Jewish Sabbath to that day."
John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ed. (New York: Eaton & Mains), Sermon 25,vol. 1, p. 221.
"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
Dwight L. Moody
D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"
Presbyterian
T. C. Blake, D.D., Theology Condensed, pp.474, 475.
"The Sabbath is a part of the decalogue - the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution . . . . Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand . . . . The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath."
source
SO let's see.
The Bible says the Seventh Day is Holy.
The Catholic Church says the Sabbath is Saturday.
Several Protestant denominations admit that Saturday is the Sabbath, NOT Sunday.
SO, WHY are people still keeping Sunday?
The Catholic Church asked the Protestants that very question.
Here is more evidence, and something I find rather amusing:
What a Mother says to her Children!!
God Bless
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Abyiah,
I do not think that in the OT - God's people outside of Israel were called to "become members of the Jewish nation" they were simply called to worship the one-True God. The ideal was for Egypt to quit serving false God's and to start worshipping the One True God - YHWH as described in the Hebrew Bible. This meant keeping the 10 commandments (all ten of them) and loving God with all their heart, loving their neighbor as themselves, having God's Law "written on the heart" and even worshipping in the temple, synagogues etc.
But they were not required to "become Jews" as in joining the Hebrew nation, or even keeping the yearly feast days in the OT. (Although they were free to do so if they chose). And so in Acts 15 you see the "same" emphasis in the NT as in the Old Testament for Gentile "believers" that are being instructed "every Sabbath" from the books of Moses (just as we SEE happening with the Gentile believers in Acts 13).
You make another point
Abyiah said It says he went to te Gentiles; it does not say he quit observing the Sabbath.
Not ONLY did Paul "not start violating God's commandments including the 4th commandment" - HE in fact claimed in Acts 21:20-36, 23:4-9, 24:14-18, 25:8-11, 26:20-23, and finally in 28:17 that in the most MINUTE details he CONTINUED to follow the practices of the ONE TRUE Hebrew nation church started by God at Sinai.
Basically in almost EVERY chapter from Acts 21 on Paul REPEATEDLY claimed to be following not ONLY the written commands but ALSO the "traditions" of the elders.
In Christ,
Bob
I do not think that in the OT - God's people outside of Israel were called to "become members of the Jewish nation" they were simply called to worship the one-True God. The ideal was for Egypt to quit serving false God's and to start worshipping the One True God - YHWH as described in the Hebrew Bible. This meant keeping the 10 commandments (all ten of them) and loving God with all their heart, loving their neighbor as themselves, having God's Law "written on the heart" and even worshipping in the temple, synagogues etc.
But they were not required to "become Jews" as in joining the Hebrew nation, or even keeping the yearly feast days in the OT. (Although they were free to do so if they chose). And so in Acts 15 you see the "same" emphasis in the NT as in the Old Testament for Gentile "believers" that are being instructed "every Sabbath" from the books of Moses (just as we SEE happening with the Gentile believers in Acts 13).
You make another point
Abyiah said It says he went to te Gentiles; it does not say he quit observing the Sabbath.
Not ONLY did Paul "not start violating God's commandments including the 4th commandment" - HE in fact claimed in Acts 21:20-36, 23:4-9, 24:14-18, 25:8-11, 26:20-23, and finally in 28:17 that in the most MINUTE details he CONTINUED to follow the practices of the ONE TRUE Hebrew nation church started by God at Sinai.
Basically in almost EVERY chapter from Acts 21 on Paul REPEATEDLY claimed to be following not ONLY the written commands but ALSO the "traditions" of the elders.
In Christ,
Bob
Where did I say that Gentiles were called to
become Jews??? 8o) I do not believe I ever said
such a thing. People are eithr born Jews or they
are not. This reminds me of when I was a child,
and I desperately wanted to be black. My family
celebrated Christmas, and for three Christmases
in a row, I requested black dollies, even though I
was warned that they could only buy the exact
same style of doll; there were no others in our
small town. Well, I got my triplets! But my skin
stayed the same. 8o)
Gentiles may be bat mitzvahed, may follow all 613
laws, may wear tzitzit, talit, and kepot, and move to
Israel, but we are each made was our God wanted
us to be made - Jew or Gentile. We cannot
change what our designed
BobRyan --
I forgot that you said that we are not called to
observe the feasts. I suggest, first, that you read
Zechariah 8, especially veses 18 - 23, and 14:16 -
21 -- prophecy not yet fulfilled. This will happen,
and we will obsereve the Feasts, as we were
intended. Our God will have it His way.
Leviticus says, "The Lord spoke again to Moses,
saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to
them, 'The Lord's appointed times which you shall
proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed
times are these:" Many mistakenly call them the
Jewish feasts, but our God calls them His feasts.
At that time, there were no Christians: our God
was working with the Jewish people, setting up
the times they were to observe. He told them
that all their people were to observe these feasts:
they, their servants, and the strangers in their
gates. If any did not observe, they were to be
expelled from their midst.
We are grafted into this "vine" by our recognition
of the Messiah.
Many Christians think the Feasts are difficult and
unnecessary. That is an interesting attitude
toward days our God set aside for our
enlightenment, continued learning about Him, and
our joy. Most of the Feasts are quite fun to
observe -- joyous occasions -- with extremely
few being solemn fasts. And the solemn fasts
are always followed with joyous feasts at their
closing!
The Feasts were intended for our joy, for our
education, and for our practicing for the times to
come. Those who choose not to observe them
neglect their own joy! 8o)
I forgot that you said that we are not called to
observe the feasts. I suggest, first, that you read
Zechariah 8, especially veses 18 - 23, and 14:16 -
21 -- prophecy not yet fulfilled. This will happen,
and we will obsereve the Feasts, as we were
intended. Our God will have it His way.
Leviticus says, "The Lord spoke again to Moses,
saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to
them, 'The Lord's appointed times which you shall
proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed
times are these:" Many mistakenly call them the
Jewish feasts, but our God calls them His feasts.
At that time, there were no Christians: our God
was working with the Jewish people, setting up
the times they were to observe. He told them
that all their people were to observe these feasts:
they, their servants, and the strangers in their
gates. If any did not observe, they were to be
expelled from their midst.
We are grafted into this "vine" by our recognition
of the Messiah.
Many Christians think the Feasts are difficult and
unnecessary. That is an interesting attitude
toward days our God set aside for our
enlightenment, continued learning about Him, and
our joy. Most of the Feasts are quite fun to
observe -- joyous occasions -- with extremely
few being solemn fasts. And the solemn fasts
are always followed with joyous feasts at their
closing!
The Feasts were intended for our joy, for our
education, and for our practicing for the times to
come. Those who choose not to observe them
neglect their own joy! 8o)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Abyiah The Feasts were intended for our joy, for our
education, and for our practicing for the times to
come. Those who choose not to observe them
neglect their own joy!
I am not arguing that we "should not observe the feasts" I am simply arguing that we are not under obligation to do so as gentiles AND that EVEN the gentiles of the OT were not under obligation to do so - though in both OT and NT gentiles may choose to do so for the reasons that you mentioned.
My point is that the 10 commandments WERE binding on all mankind and still are - but the "annual feast days" of Lev 23 were not binding on all mankind in the OT - or in the NT.
My point is that when Paul in Romans 14 says that one man "observes" ONE of the Holy days above ANOTHER while ANOTHER man "Observes" ALL the Holy Days - yet he who "Observes the day" does so unto the Lord... Paul is allowing the choice between the annual Holy Days -- for Christians to pick one or the other OR ALL. (Though interestingly - he does not specify "observing NONE" as an option).
In Ephesians 2 we are told that the symbol of circumcision was much more than "one additional identification with Israel" - rather it was actual, literal, national identity. In Acts 13 we see gentiles participating in the worship of the One True God - but they are not "Jews" they are not circumcised and that is BEFORE being introduced to the Christian message of the NT.
In Acts 15 the argument is "Well the Gentiles have become Christians - and that is fine - but they should ALSO become Jews - they should join the NATION of Israel as Jews - not merely stopping at becoming a Christian and attending synagogue to hear Moses preached each Sabbath".
In Galations 5 - Paul objects to the idea that the Gentile Christians would feel obligated to Join the Nation of Israel literally as if that National identity was needed for Salvation, or even for first-class Christian status.
(Of course it is easy to see "why" they might feel that you needed to BE a Jew to be a first-class Christian since ALL the Apostles and church leaders were Jews).
But then in Galations 2:3 Paul reports that Titus was NOT compelled to become a Jew "nationally" and actually seems quite proud of the fact.
My point is that EVEN in the OT - gentiles were not asked to "become literal jews" or to join the nation literally nor where they obligated to keep the annual feast days in order to worship the God of the OT - the One True God of today.
In all the passages where God calls the gentiles in the OT - He does not call them "to become literal Jews" nor does He call them "to join the nation of Israel" nor even to observe the national annual Holy days. Israel was to serve (ideally) as a Kingdom of Priests (evangelists) to their believing and unbelieving neighbor nations. Israel was to teach, and preach salvation to the rest of the world. They were in fact "A Nation Church of Priests" to the World.
But the rest of the world was not obligated to "join the nation" of Israel in anything other than worshipping the one True God of Israel as the Bible - the Word of God specified.
We may not completely agree on all aspects of this - but I think you see where I get these ideas.
In Christ,
Bob
[ February 17, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
education, and for our practicing for the times to
come. Those who choose not to observe them
neglect their own joy!
I am not arguing that we "should not observe the feasts" I am simply arguing that we are not under obligation to do so as gentiles AND that EVEN the gentiles of the OT were not under obligation to do so - though in both OT and NT gentiles may choose to do so for the reasons that you mentioned.
My point is that the 10 commandments WERE binding on all mankind and still are - but the "annual feast days" of Lev 23 were not binding on all mankind in the OT - or in the NT.
My point is that when Paul in Romans 14 says that one man "observes" ONE of the Holy days above ANOTHER while ANOTHER man "Observes" ALL the Holy Days - yet he who "Observes the day" does so unto the Lord... Paul is allowing the choice between the annual Holy Days -- for Christians to pick one or the other OR ALL. (Though interestingly - he does not specify "observing NONE" as an option).
In Ephesians 2 we are told that the symbol of circumcision was much more than "one additional identification with Israel" - rather it was actual, literal, national identity. In Acts 13 we see gentiles participating in the worship of the One True God - but they are not "Jews" they are not circumcised and that is BEFORE being introduced to the Christian message of the NT.
In Acts 15 the argument is "Well the Gentiles have become Christians - and that is fine - but they should ALSO become Jews - they should join the NATION of Israel as Jews - not merely stopping at becoming a Christian and attending synagogue to hear Moses preached each Sabbath".
In Galations 5 - Paul objects to the idea that the Gentile Christians would feel obligated to Join the Nation of Israel literally as if that National identity was needed for Salvation, or even for first-class Christian status.
(Of course it is easy to see "why" they might feel that you needed to BE a Jew to be a first-class Christian since ALL the Apostles and church leaders were Jews).
But then in Galations 2:3 Paul reports that Titus was NOT compelled to become a Jew "nationally" and actually seems quite proud of the fact.
My point is that EVEN in the OT - gentiles were not asked to "become literal jews" or to join the nation literally nor where they obligated to keep the annual feast days in order to worship the God of the OT - the One True God of today.
In all the passages where God calls the gentiles in the OT - He does not call them "to become literal Jews" nor does He call them "to join the nation of Israel" nor even to observe the national annual Holy days. Israel was to serve (ideally) as a Kingdom of Priests (evangelists) to their believing and unbelieving neighbor nations. Israel was to teach, and preach salvation to the rest of the world. They were in fact "A Nation Church of Priests" to the World.
But the rest of the world was not obligated to "join the nation" of Israel in anything other than worshipping the one True God of Israel as the Bible - the Word of God specified.
We may not completely agree on all aspects of this - but I think you see where I get these ideas.
In Christ,
Bob
[ February 17, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Abyiah I suggest, first, that you read
Zechariah 8, especially veses 18 - 23, and 14:16 -
21 -- prophecy not yet fulfilled. This will happen,
and we will obsereve the Feasts, as we were
intended. Our God will have it His way.
I see Zech 8 declaring that other nations will go to Jerusalem to worship the one true God in His temple - but I don't see that limited to annual Holy days OR that that they (the Gentile nations) were commanded to observe the Annual Holy days.
They were "free to do so" but not under the obligation to do so that the Jews were under. (And if I recall - the Jews were only under obligation to observe 3 of the Holy Days as an absolute - true?)
In Christ,
Bob
Zechariah 8, especially veses 18 - 23, and 14:16 -
21 -- prophecy not yet fulfilled. This will happen,
and we will obsereve the Feasts, as we were
intended. Our God will have it His way.
I see Zech 8 declaring that other nations will go to Jerusalem to worship the one true God in His temple - but I don't see that limited to annual Holy days OR that that they (the Gentile nations) were commanded to observe the Annual Holy days.
They were "free to do so" but not under the obligation to do so that the Jews were under. (And if I recall - the Jews were only under obligation to observe 3 of the Holy Days as an absolute - true?)
In Christ,
Bob
You are right. There are some honest people out there, but you are not one of them. Let me give you an example:
Is this the quote you attribute to D.L. Moody, the Dwight L. Moody, the Great Evangelist, who was led to the Lord by a Sunday-School teacher named Edward Kimball. Moody gave his whole life to evanglelism, working in churches that met on Sundays. In his church in Baltimore in 1878-79 he preached regularly four times a day on Sunday. Wherever he went he preached every Sunday Your quotes and remarks are either direct lies or plain deceptiveness. I prefer to say the latter. Here is the reason why.
First look at the common (not the Biblical definition), but the common definition of the word "Sabbath:"
Sabbath: 1. a day of the week used for rest and worship.
2. The seventh day of the week observed by Jews and some Christians.
3. SUNDAY, observed by most Christians.
4. Also sabbath Figurative: a time or period of time used for rest and quiet.
Sabbath School: 1. Sunday School
2. a school of religious instruction held on Saturdays by Seventh Day Adventists.
To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is deceitful, ignorant, and wrong. In his era, the sabbath was a synonym for Sunday. Sunday and Sabbath meant the same thing (even though that may have been theologically wrong). Sunday schools were called Sabbath Schools, long before the Seventh Day Adventists even came into existence.
Many of your quotes could be refuted in the same way.
As for the Catholic quotes. There is no doubt that the Catholics "officially" proclaimed Sunday as the "official" day of worship. So what? They officially proclaimed the trinity to be a doctrine of the Bible too. Does that mean it was not believed before then?
You have made no case at all. In fact your deceitfulness is abhorrent.
DHK
Victory Leader
New Member
How come Jesus Himself didn't keep the Sabbath the way that SDA's say to? The way the Jews said to. He healed on the Sabbath. He even went into the grave on the Sabbath and took the keys of death and hell from Satan. WOW! he worked on the Sabbath. He is our rest.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is nothing about the way Jesus Kept the Sabbath that is contrary to what you see in Sabbath keeping Christian churches today.
Nothing about it that was contrary to HIS OWN commands in the OT.
But IF we could deify the evolving traditions of the Jewish magesterium to the point of godhood - I suppose then we might conclude that since Jesus was not keeping "their" man-made laws that he was "not keeping His Holy Seventh-day memorial of HIS OWN creative work - His day that He MADE for mankind".
But that is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
In Christ,
Bob
Nothing about it that was contrary to HIS OWN commands in the OT.
But IF we could deify the evolving traditions of the Jewish magesterium to the point of godhood - I suppose then we might conclude that since Jesus was not keeping "their" man-made laws that he was "not keeping His Holy Seventh-day memorial of HIS OWN creative work - His day that He MADE for mankind".
But that is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is nothing about the way Jesus Kept the Sabbath that is contrary to what you see in Sabbath keeping Christian churches today.
Nothing about it that was contrary to HIS OWN commands in the OT.
But IF we could deify the evolving traditions of the Jewish magesterium to the point of godhood - I suppose then we might conclude that since Jesus was not keeping "their" man-made laws that he was "not keeping His Holy Seventh-day memorial of HIS OWN creative work - His day that He MADE for mankind".
But that is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
In Christ,
Bob
Nothing about it that was contrary to HIS OWN commands in the OT.
But IF we could deify the evolving traditions of the Jewish magesterium to the point of godhood - I suppose then we might conclude that since Jesus was not keeping "their" man-made laws that he was "not keeping His Holy Seventh-day memorial of HIS OWN creative work - His day that He MADE for mankind".
But that is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
In Christ,
Bob
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Prove from the Bible that Satan EVER had the keys to death and hell.
Jesus DID indeed keep the Sabbath in the EXACT way that we do. HE is our model.
Healing is doing good on the Sabbath.
He RESTED on the Sabbath in the grave.
He overcame death and the grave by dying and rising again.
Where does it say ANYWHERE in the Bible that Jesus broke the Sabbath?
God Bless
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
You are right. There are some honest people out there, but you are not one of them. Let me give you an example:
Is this the quote you attribute to D.L. Moody, the Dwight L. Moody, the Great Evangelist, who was led to the Lord by a Sunday-School teacher named Edward Kimball. Moody gave his whole life to evanglelism, working in churches that met on Sundays. In his church in Baltimore in 1878-79 he preached regularly four times a day on Sunday. Wherever he went he preached every Sunday Your quotes and remarks are either direct lies or plain deceptiveness. I prefer to say the latter. Here is the reason why.
First look at the common (not the Biblical definition), but the common definition of the word "Sabbath:"
Sabbath: 1. a day of the week used for rest and worship.
2. The seventh day of the week observed by Jews and some Christians.
3. SUNDAY, observed by most Christians.
4. Also sabbath Figurative: a time or period of time used for rest and quiet.
Sabbath School: 1. Sunday School
2. a school of religious instruction held on Saturdays by Seventh Day Adventists.
To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is deceitful, ignorant, and wrong. In his era, the sabbath was a synonym for Sunday. Sunday and Sabbath meant the same thing (even though that may have been theologically wrong). Sunday schools were called Sabbath Schools, long before the Seventh Day Adventists even came into existence.
Many of your quotes could be refuted in the same way.
As for the Catholic quotes. There is no doubt that the Catholics "officially" proclaimed Sunday as the "official" day of worship. So what? They officially proclaimed the trinity to be a doctrine of the Bible too. Does that mean it was not believed before then?
You have made no case at all. In fact your deceitfulness is abhorrent.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, WHAT did I say in that post?
ALL of that was quotes of other people.
It is deceitfulness now to quote people?
UHH, YOU are the one who said Moody kept the Sabbath.
All I did was quote him.
Again your inability to comprehend what you read shines though!
Even if Dwight Moody was a Sunday keeper, does not negate the fact that he made this statement.
CATHOLICS made all those statements, and THEY are sunday keepers!
The point of all those quotes is to show that you and many others like you, take it upon yourself to prove from Scripture something that is not scripturally founded.
If you have so much reverence for Dwight Moody, maybe you should listen to him
The reason my post is so abhorrent to you is because, it WITHOUT DOUBT proves that you are wrong, and that just doesn't fit in with your little games.
I know I make you
, but the truth will shine through no matter how much you refuse it.Don't get mad at me for posting Dwight Moody, get mad at him for proving you decieved.
God Bless