Would you fellowship with a Seventh Day Adventist Family?

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Lev 23 identifies that list of Holy Days.

Some observed ALL of them - and others chose to Observe ONE ABOVE another.

Paul argued that you could not condemn the one for selecting ONE of them ABOVE another - and you could not condemen the one who Observed Them ALL.

He said nothing about abolishing the 10 commandments, or the 4th commandment, or "observing No day".

Notice that "observing" in that case - meant setting the day aside as an entire day of worship - no work.

Nowhere in this passage does Paul refer to the holy days listed in Leviticus 23. You are reading that into the Scripture based on your own presuppositions. Paul said nothing about abolishing the 4th commandment, neither did he say anything about keeping it. Again you are reading into this passage something that is not there, based on your own presuppositions.

Romans 14:5,6
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The word esteem means to judge or honor. One man will judge one day to be above another: another judges ever day alike.
He that regards the day. Regards means observe. He observes it to the Lord, and it really doesn't it matter what day it is. The Jews in Acts 2 were meeting on every day of the week. People read into the passage "worship," but their primary purpose was teaching, "doctrine." See Acts 2:42. Doctrine is the first thing mentioned in that list. They continued in the Apostles' doctrine. It was most important.
Nowhere in Romans 14 is worship mentioned. Again that is something you have assumed, you have read into the passage because of your own presuppositions. One man observed every day to be equal; another man observed one day to be more important than all the others. Why? The reason is not specifically given. I believe it was because that that day was the first day of the week, the day that the Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus Christ, by meeting together, hearing the Word of God, and observng the Lord's Table. We have absolutely no evidence that it had anything to do with the Sabbath Day. Acts 20:7 indicates that they met on the first day of the week. Why should we believe anything to the contrary?
DHK

 

[Singer]

I use the following verses to justify the use of Saturday, Sunday
or No-day as a worship day. Isn't it best to "be ye thankful always" ?
Why are we subject to rules concerning a holyday when the bible
says different. God won't be so naive as to refuse His spirit to
someone based on a certain day. He accepts sinners...why not
No day worshippers..?

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
[days]

2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the
world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 14 it is "REAL" issues that are being dealt with - not imaginary ones.

The Bible DOES mention meat offerred to idols but does not mention being a vegetarian. The first example of faith in Romans 14 is the one who "eats all things" vs the vegetarian who has weak faith.

There is no command for Jews to "be vegetarian" that the Christians were having to deal with. The issue arose entirely out of the command "not to eat meat offerred to idols". Paul says "I will not eat meat at all rather than cause one of my bretheren to stumble". So it is a "real" issue, based on "real ordinances".

In the case of "Observing EVERY day" - there is NO command in scripture for Jews to keep 365 days a year as "holy days" as DHK imagines. RATHER - the issue is the set of holy days that WERE given (not an imaginary set that were NOT given as DHK imagines).

The contrast is between those who "OBSERVE EVERY DAY" that had been given (rather than merely IMAGINED) as contrasted to "OBSERVING ONE ABOVE ANOTHER". Notice that Paul "OBSERVED ONE ABOVE ANOTHER" - and that the "Strong in Faith" association is to the one who "Observed One Above Another" if we stick with the sequence given for meat vs vegetarian.

The idea "why can't I just ignore God's 10 commandments especially the 4th commandment to WORSHIP Him who MADE the Heavens and the Earth and the SEA" (as we also see in Rev 14:7-8) is a good question.

Shouldn't we be "free" to rebell as we "please"?

After all - we ARE Christians now! Why not Sin as it suits us - "For he who is guilty of breaking one of God's commandments is guilty of breaking ALL" James 2.

Well as it turns out we are to "SO act and live as those who ARE to be judged by God's Law of Liberty" that law that says "Do NOT commit adultery, do NOT steal,..."... You know - "ordinances".

Col 2 meantions the "MAN made ordinances of do not touch, do not taste" which is NOT the "vegetarian vs Meat" issue in Romans 14. Instead of "man made ordinances" - James 2 delcares that it is "God-made ordinances" that will judge us "So Live as those who ARE to be judged by the LAW of Liberty that says ... Do not Steal, Do not commit adultery...etc".

And Paul affirms this "Do we then make VOID the Commands of God through Faith???? God forbid!!! In fact we ESTABLISH them" Rom 3:31.

And the nail in the coffin of "Why not just sin agianst God's 10 commandments as it pleases us" - is found in Romans 2 "For it is not hearers of God's Law that are JUSTIFIED but it is the DOERS of the Law that will be Justified" Rom 2:13.

The issue in Romans 14 is NOT an imaginary one of observing 365 days vs observing God's Holy Creation-week Seventh-day Sabbath made a Holy Day at Creation for mankind in Gen 2:3.

IF such had been then case then Paul would be ENDORSING those who work NO DAYS a week - those who work NO days a year. Those who OBSERVE EVERDY day of the year as a holy day set aside for Rest - No Work - ACTUAL Sabbath Observance of 365 days. Nothing of the kind is EVER endorsed by Paul.

Notice that in Romans 14 and the observance of days - Paul defends BOTH practices. This is a HUGE problem for those who claim that "OBSERVING EVERY DAY" is to refrain from work and keep 365 days as "Sabbath".

In fact What many "need" is that the text say "One OBSERVES One day above another as Holy while another man OBSERVES NO DAY as Holy". (Just as was pointed out in the previous post above).

Such a theme is not found in all of scripture.

The abuses Paul addressed in Col 2 - were regarding man made "Ordinances" and were also regarding "judging one another" something that Christ condemned BEFORE the Cross changed anything (see Matt 7) WHILE the Seventh-day Sabbath was in Full force. Paul did not say in Col 2 "It USED to be ok to judge one another regarding one of the shadow Sabbath days pointing forward to Christ but now it is not allowed". Those who try to re-work Col 2 to get that out of it - are simply not reading the text for what it does say.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ben W]

It was always on my mind when I first took a look at the Sabbath Issue, that the Bible does not say the Sabbath was changed.

When the Issue of Circumsicion was brought up, Paul gives it nearly a chapter, It would not be unreasonable to expect the same treatment to be given to something like the change of the Sabbath.

 

[Singer]

You seem to have a good arguement for the Sabbath, but then
the Catholis seem to have a good case for their One True
Church theory too. Likewise the cult (?) I was raised in (Friends/Workers)
has a good case for their exclusive thoughts.

To borrow your words, Bob Ryan, the HUGE problem is in the
format of the exclusivists of which SDA is involved. The problem is that
Jesus does not favor the exclusivist. He sets the rules, not some church.
He is the only one who has authority to be an exclusivist and His
statement that overrides any obedience to the 4th or l0th commandments
is this:

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life....etc."

He said "Whosoever believes in me shall never die" ..... "Whosoever
has the Son has life"........."Whosoever shall call upon the name of the
Lord shall be saved"...........

I can't quite grasp all the RCC, SDA, JW, Morman, Friends/Workers rules
and regulations, justifications and verifications, and I don't think God
even expects me to sort it all out. You legalists get so deep in the pool
that you muddy the water. Result is a society of people who are seeking
a "way" rather than accepting the "WAY" that Jesus provided.

Therefore we get ''church hopping'' and brainwashing and cults and a
multitude of people who seek to confuse the simple Gospel.

It's "Whosoever Will".......

 

[Abiyah]

Once again on BB, I put out the friendly but
serious challenge, not at all in derision but in
sincerity:

Prove to me that the Sabbath worship day was
changed, in the Bible, from the seventh day to the
first day of the week, and I will mail you a
cashier's check for $100.00. Show me where our
God, who changes not, changed His mind about
the worship day He set up from the beginning,
where He negated His own commandment. Show
me where His Son, who is the very Word of our
God changed that Word regarding Sabbath.

It should be simple for those who do not set aside
the Sabbath, or you would be doing it. 8o)

And I don't love Sunday-worshipers any less than
I do those who worship on Sabbath, but this is a
life-long major curiosity to me. 8o)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Sure, I'd fellowship. That's what we do here, ain't it ? We scream and yell, and want the other one to change their minds, but I think it is a form of fellowship.

Now worship ? Nope. Go to their church ? Nope. Give them offerings/tithes ? Nope.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:
Thanks Jim H. for this quote:

"Romans 14:1-4 is a verse we Baptist like to hammer anyone with
who tells us that we shouldn't eat pork, but we tend to forget it
works both ways. Neither are we to judge someone who doesn't.
Ditto for worshipping on a particular day. "

Still there is much ado about Sunday worshippers Worshipping the Sun
in the SDA circles.

In using your suggestions, it makes it easier for me to justify that I
choose not to attend church and that I am as spiritual one day as the
next. I have my assurance and stand on many of the same verses
as 3 Angels Mom quoted...I just reject the Saturday Only thing.

For you, 3 Angels Mom; with that in mind, could you then worship with
Sunday keepers (as the day doesn't matter)...?

I can only halfway answer that question. The day DOES matter, and yes I have and do worship with Sunday keepers because when one of my sisters sing in their church, I attend and when I sing in my church my family attends. They are Baptist.

I have been a SDA for almost 3 years now, and it has NEVER come out of my mouth the things that you think of us. We are NOT elitists. Let me say that again. We are NOT elitists. We do not think the way that the RCC does about salvation out side of us. We believe that there are God's people in EVERY denomination. Regardless of day of worship, and doctrine. I know at least 10 Catholics that I have no doubt in my mind that I will see in heaven. I know at least 100 Baptists that I have no doubt that I will see in heaven. I even know some MORMONS (gasp) that I have no doubt I will see in heaven. You see, the reason I can say this with confidence is because of all those verses you posted. We believe them too (*ahhh*)

So you see, it is not 'if you don't follow you are doomed' (like others who will remain nameless) it is 'You are responsible to God for the light that you have been given'.

I dare say, at this point, your curiosity is a clear sign that God is trying to show you the Sabbath truth.

It is a hard pill to swallow, I will be the first to admit. After so many years of thinking I had it all figured out, one day in prayer and study it just didn't make sense anymore.

I guess that's what I get for claiming this verse:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Praise God that is what I got!

Don't ever stop yourself and think that you have arrived. We need to always be learning and always remain teachable. As long as you do that, God WILL stay true to His promise.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Sure, I'd fellowship. That's what we do here, ain't it ? We scream and yell, and want the other one to change their minds, but I think it is a form of fellowship.

Now worship ? Nope. Go to their church ? Nope. Give them offerings/tithes ? Nope.

It saddens me that so many people have been duped into thinking that the members of the Seventh Day Adventist church are not their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Truly sad, Brother Curtis.

No matter what your denominational affiliation is, I would pray with you, sing with you, walk and talk with you, come to church with you if you invited me.

You want to know why? Jesus does.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

Abiyah,

Your challenge is in the same catagory as he who would pay
for proof that God exists. No one would ever do so to his
satisfaction.

Seems like Catholics have the same offer to anyone who can
prove that Jesus did not set up and sanction the Catholic Church
as the means of providing truth to a lost world.

I might offer money to anyone who can biblically prove that
worshipping (day of rest) on either Sunday OR Saturday is
important to salvation.

Again there is too much clouding of a simple issue (Salvation).

"Whosoever has the Son has Life"...we should ponder how to get
the Son instead.

No...forget that statement cuz the Catholic Church says it's through
regenerative baptism. See how futile it all is...?

I think I'll go walk my dog.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:

I might offer money to anyone who can biblically prove that worshipping (day of rest) on either Sunday OR Saturday is important to salvation.

Ok.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

You can read that to say what it means or twist it and distort it to NOT say what you don't want it to. Don't forget, that is a letter to HEBREWS.

God Bless

 

[Johnv]

I don't care what denomination you are. If follow Christ to the best of your imperfect human amility (as do I), I'll fellowship with you.

Getting two Baptists to agree on matters of faith is pretty much impossible. Why should it be different with a Baptist and a congregant of the SDA?

 

[Singer]

To 3 Angels Mom:

I felt a rush of sympathy/love for you as I began this post.

1.) It was the same feeling I had for 3 JWs who left my home ...red faced and
frustrated that they could not "get anywhere with you". They so sincerely
tried to get me to understand something that still remains foreign to me.
They felt that the kingdom would have been expanded if I'd joined their
church. I was a believer/christian at the time. My JW cousins must feel sorry
for me that I didn't hear God's voice.

2.) I was raised in an exclusive (cult ?) and for 20 some years was confronted
with their appeal to "come to meetings and be saved". They felt I needed
to join their organization and denounce "worldly churches" in order to
continue a life of works that would MAYBE lead to salvation.

3.) My sister and family are Mormons and she had sent me the Book of Mormon
to read and appealed to me that it was the right way to go. Other Mormons have
since informed me that it is the "one true church". She thinks I should join her
church to obtain the best chance at salvation.

4.) A full year of debating with Catholics on another forum enlightened me to
the fact that we will all be judged according to the light that we have been
given. *Catholic light of course. They deny exclusivism (elitist). I should join
their church for the best chance at Purgatory/heaven and yet I remain "unwilling,
illiterate, stupid, and deceived for my reluctance to adhere to God's calling.

5.) So when you, 3AM, say "'You are responsible to God for the light that you
have been given'. I dare say, at this point, your curiosity is a clear sign that
God is trying to show you the Sabbath truth"...........can I take you seriously..?

What I do like that you said was this :
" Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide
you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

That truth for me happened 26 years ago when I accepted Jesus Christ
as my Lord and Savior. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with
evidence of tongues. It was the most gratifying event...a touch from God.
I've left the group of my childhood and to this day am not a member of
any church. I don't suffer for lack of Catholic truth, Sabbath truth, Baptist
truth JW or Mormon influence or the membership in my childhood group.
I see as through a glass darkly (as we all do) and rest on the assurance
of God's promises with the light that I DO have.

Thanks for your concern. There is really nothing I can do at this point to
add to my favor with God or my salvation.

 

[Jim H.]

Here's an article that covers all the points really well. This is an really good exposition of Hebrews 4.

http://www.cwis.net/~wog/christiansabbath.html

Read also the "related article".

Jim

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:

To 3 Angels Mom:

I felt a rush of sympathy/love for you as I began this post.

After reading your post, you have my sympathy.

I didn't say that you needed anything else to gain Salvation.

But now that you bring it up, I would like to mention that keeping it is a whole different ball of wax.

I could throw a whole slew of verses at you to prove my point, make yours moot, and then we can all go home. But I am going save both of us the trouble.

Only God can open your mind to the truth, but you have to let Him.

It isn't MY truth. It isn't the Seventh Day Adventist Church's truth. The Sabbath Truth is GOD'S truth.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

3 Angels Mom:

Salvation is not as fragile as you might believe. This Spirit was given to
me by God and He said He would not reject it. Salvation is a gift
that I intend to keep and all I have to do to keep it is .....KEEP IT !

Salvation will not depend on whether I begin worshipping on
the Sabbath. I've already got salvation.....what do you mean here ?
Does God grant salvation and then withdraw it after a given time
span when the recipient does not change days of the week..? I came
from a Cult...remember. I've heard this stuff before. And...I wasn't
naive enough to join that cult...I was born into it.

Your quote : "Only God can open your mind to the truth, but you
have to let Him."

..........is resounded from every known church, cult and religious
organization in the world. Mormons and Catholics have quoted
that to me and the Friends/Workers did too.

The Truth that Jesus wants us to open our mind to is the simple
Gospel that He was the Son of God and came to take our place in
death....that whosoever believes in Him shall never die. That's what
is so hard for people to understand. That is what is important.
Sabbath or Sunday worship or whether Peter was the Rock or whether
Jesus could have sinned etc. are all topics to take from the thing
that does matter...i.e. " Jesus The Way".

You say it's not your law or The SDA law...it's God's law ?
Jesus fulfilled God's law for me. I don't have to worry about the Sabbath.

 

[Singer]

Maybe 15 years ago the local SDA church went door to door
distributing a booklet called..."What I Like About".....and its
chapters named each popular brandname church. It gave
credit for each church's adherence to scripture, their charity
programs etc. The last chapter in the book then tore each of
them down for not honoring the seventh day as the day of
rest and worship. That book did more harm than good for
their cause; in my eyes .

It would be equivalent to a college graduate walking to the
platform to get his degree after eight years of study....only to
be told that he was disqualified for submitting his test papers
on the wrong kind of paper.

3 Angels Mom...your long list of scripture in this thread is
encouraging to a believer. I believe it too. I read the same
KJV as you no doubt. I have the Son. I believe. Will God
reject me for the wrong kind of paper ?

 

[Abiyah]

Singer --

Since you did not like my callenge, perhaps you
could try another. Using a long sheet of paper,
fold it in half, and title the first side Sabbath and
the second side Sunday. Go through the Bible
and write down all the references which indicate
Sabbath worship on the first side, then do the
same for Sunday worship on the other side, using
any reference that could be stretched to belief in
Sunday worship instead.

If you put a penny on each side of an opposing
scale for each verse from the Bible, which side of
the scale would be heaviest?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
If you put a penny on each side of an opposing
scale for each verse from the Bible, which side of
the scale would be heaviest?

Does it matter? Where in the New Testament, anywhere, does it command the believer to worship on the Sabbath Day?
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:
[QB] 3 Angels Mom:

Salvation is not as fragile as you might believe. This Spirit was given to me by God and He said He would not reject it. Salvation is a gift
that I intend to keep and all I have to do to keep it is .....KEEP IT !

How? Can you hold it in your hand, hide it under your pillow, keep it in a safe? HOW do you keep it? Do you read your Bible? Seriously. It says a WHOLE lot about this in there. Not just Sabbath stuff, but a whole slew of other stuff about KEEPING your Salvation. Read James.

Salvation will not depend on whether I begin worshipping on the Sabbath. I've already got salvation.....what do you mean here ?

Do you know that the Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy by ceasing from labor is in the Bible? Do you know that it also says in the Bible that if you know what is good to do, and you don't do it, it is sin? Did you know that it says in the Bible that once you know that something is a sin and you keep doing it anyway there is no longer a sacrifice for that sin? If there is no longer a sacrifice, WHO do you think is going to take the penalty for that sin?

Does God grant salvation and then withdraw it after a given time span when the recipient does not change days of the week..?

Depends on how long He tries to convict your heart. If you refuse to obey the Spirit, it can grieve Him away.

I came from a Cult...remember. I've heard this stuff before.

Do you think that God doesn't know that? Or better yet, do you think that you will be able to excuse yourself by blaming them?

And...I wasn't naive enough to join that cult...I was born into it.

So now that you know you are smart enough to see error. Give God the chance to show you HIS Truth. We were all born into sin, Jesus is the answer to that. But are we to LIVE in sin because He will forgive?

Your quote : "Only God can open your mind to the truth, but you have to let Him."

..........is resounded from every known church, cult and religious organization in the world. Mormons and Catholics have quoted that to me and the Friends/Workers did too.

So because they said it, it is automatically bad? Keep in mind all of those people will say 'God LOVES you'. Is that bad too? Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Truth that Jesus wants us to open our mind to is the simple Gospel that He was the Son of God and came to take our place in death....that whosoever believes in Him shall never die.

And it was that same Jesus who said 'IF you love me KEEP my Commandments'

That's what is so hard for people to understand.

Actually, that seems to be the one thing that people get!

That is what is important.

It is ONE of the things that are important.

Sabbath or Sunday worship or whether Peter was the Rock or whether Jesus could have sinned etc. are all topics to take from the thing that does matter...i.e. " Jesus is The Way".

Peter was not the rock. Jesus IS. Jesus COULD NOT have sinned HE IS GOD. The SEVENTH DAY is the SABBATH of the Lord YOUR God. If Jesus is YOUR way, why don't you listen to Him? He told you something 2000 years ago, and 3 different people wrote it down. "I am LORD of the Sabbath".

You say it's not your law or The SDA law...it's God's law ?

Actually, that isn't what I said. I said it is God's TRUTH.

Jesus fulfilled God's law for me.

RIGHT! He FULFILLED it. He didn't destroy it. He didn't nullify it. He didn't wipe it out. He FULFILLED it. He even said NOT ONE JOT NOR TITTLE WILL PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THINGS ARE FULFILLED He didn't say 'ok, I died for you, now GO and SIN SOME MORE' did He? NO, He said 'your sins are forgiven you, GO AND SIN NO MORE.

I don't have to worry about the Sabbath.

Yeah, don't worry about obeying God, I mean, He's just God, it's no big deal. You have Grace! You're good to GO!!!

Easy Believism is of the Devil.

God Bless