Would You Fellowship?

[MEE]

Originally posted by Marcia:

I missed that statement! "Incarnation of the Father" does sound possibly Oneness since one Oneness belief is that they believe that Jesus is the Father.

No, Oneness saints believe that Jesus was the Son/Flesh that the Father/Spirit lived in while He was on Earth to die for the sins of humanity.

MEE

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Bob
The Oneness is that there is only ONE person - and that we see the ONE person in 3 forms at various times.

However this teaching above is that God is ONE and that the ONE God is in THREE REAL persons (as opposed to THREE GOD's in THREE persons). AS the song says "God in THREE persons blessed Trinity".

Bob, I don't think their statement on the Triune God says there are 3 real persons. They use the word "manifest" which does not make it clearly Trinitarian.

I've actually studied this some and wrote a brief article on it. I visited the Oneness sites that had statements of faith (many don't; I am always suspicious of a church that does not post a Statement of Faith) and the use of the word "manifest" is very common. I would never use that word in a statement of faith because of this.

They believe that God "manifests" in 3 forms at various times. Some Oneness followers believe God can do this simultaneously (but it is still one God and not 3 Persons in One) and some that He does it consecutively.

A superb article on this is an article on Philips, Craig, and Dean (I just them mentioned on another BB forum) who are all Oneness pastors yet sing in evangelical churches because most Christians do not know they are Oneness (and sadly, some don't care).

Continued.....(had to break off to post)

 

[Marcia]

(Continued from previous post...this is part of the article mentioned there)

From
http://www.aomin.org/PCD.html

Dan Dean’s church web site puts it like this:

...there is One True God that has manifested Himself as Father in creation, Son in redemption and the Holy Spirit in emanation. (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Timothy 3:16; Acts 2:33)[10]

PCD is willing to use words like “Triune” of God, but only in the sense that God has three different roles that he performs throughout Scripture; three different manifestations. This is a key concept that differentiates PCD’s god from the God of the Bible. Although this god manifests Himself in these three roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, these manifestations are not eternal, but temporary. Additionally, there are no relationships of a personal kind between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

This is demonstrated most clearly in The Enquirer’s Handbook, a book of basic doctrines published by Randy Phillips’ ministry, The World of Pentecost. The Handbook is perhaps the most detailed theological statement available from the ministries of Randy Phillips, Shawn Craig and Dan Dean.

. . . ).

The Enquirer’s Handbook denies that the Father, Son, and Spirit are personal centers of identity, capable of relationship with each other. Instead, it claims that the terms “Father,” “Son,” and “Holy Spirit” are merely descriptive of the ways that the unipersonal God acts.

In other words, God appeared in the flesh (as a son)…The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are simply three manifestations of One God. You, yourself, may be manifested as a son to your father, a husband to your wife, and a father to your children. As an individual person you may be manifested in various ways; and likewise the Almighty God is manifested as a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost while He remains indisputably, undeniably, ONE.[12]

to be continued yet again....

 

[Rosell]

1. Several doctrinal points I disagree with--
The Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God with the addendum of applying this to the original autographs. We don't have the original autographs, so we don't have an infallible Bible. No definition of what "inspired" means here. Healing is not necessarily deliverance from Satan.

2. I don't "withold fellowship" from anyone. Unless there is some underlying meaning of this term, I can't see how people saved by God's grace and filled with his love can turn their back on people who may be misled or not believers at all.

 

[Marcia]

Part 3 (continued), rest of quote from article and maybe rest of post...

Of course this illustration fails when one considers the Biblical teaching that the Divine Persons of the Trinity interact with each other. A man may be a father to his children, and a husband to his wife, but these roles do not feel emotion toward each other; they are not consciously self-aware. On the other hand, the Persons of the Trinity communicate with each other; they love and demonstrate their love to each other. A “manifestation” cannot have a personal relationship or personal interaction with another “manifestation.”

still to be contined....

 

[Marcia]

Part 4!


Dan Dean's Heartland Church has this under "What We Believe" (this is just an excerpt)

We believe in the true one God who is revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
(John 14:18-27; II Corinthians 13:14)

We believe in the Virgin Birth, The Begotten Sonship, and Deity of Jesus Christ; that He was God and Man.
(I Timothy 3:16; Matthew1:23)
From
http://www.christ-temple.org/first/first.asp?id=95

They use "revealed as" instead of "manifest." Both terms are commonly used in Oneness statements.

Randy Phillips' church, Promiseland, is more blatantly Oneness:

We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His
manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is
Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.
From
http://www.promiselandchurch.net/About_Promiseland/what_we_believe.htm

Being "both" Father, Son, and HS is not even correct grammar! But the most serious problem is the theology.

Mercury, someone can be saved without understanding the Trinity, but not understanding at salvation is one thing; denying the Trinity is another. Oneness denies the Trinity.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:

I missed that statement! "Incarnation of the Father" does sound possibly Oneness since one Oneness belief is that they believe that Jesus is the Father.

No, Oneness saints believe that Jesus was the Son/Flesh that the Father/Spirit lived in while He was on Earth to die for the sins of humanity.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the clarification, MEE. Jesus is the "flesh" of the Father, right?

Posted by Roselle
I don't "withold fellowship" from anyone. Unless there is some underlying meaning of this term, I can't see how people saved by God's grace and filled with his love can turn their back on people who may be misled or not believers at all.

I am not sure you know what we mean by "fellowship." We don't mean just talking and hanging out. This is in context of "fellowshipping in Christ" as with other believers. I do not fellowship with Mormons, for example. That means I would not worship with them in their church or unite with them as fellow Christians, because they are not fellow Christians.

The basic premise of evangelical fellowshipping is who is being recognized as a believer according to the Bible.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Mercury, someone can be saved without understanding the Trinity, but not understanding at salvation is one thing; denying the Trinity is another.

I agree. By contrast, the Athanasian Creed says, "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." It does not make the distinction you have made. For this reason, I cannot agree with the creed and find it unbiblical.

 

[John Gilmore]

Mercury,

You are still adding to the Athanasian Creed something that is not there. The saving faith of the Holy Trinity is given by the Holy Spirit and does not depend on human reason or understanding. However, when men think of the Holy Trinity in any other way than the way described by the Athanasian Creed (e.g., the bogus creed presented at the outset of this thread), they have denied the Christ, the Lord that bought them. They are worshipping an idol and they can not be saved.

[ August 29, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
The saving faith of the Holy Trinity is given by the Holy Spirit and does not depend on human reason or understanding.

No, I don't believe that. If the Holy Spirit were in the business of conveying perfect understanding of doctrine or perfect understanding of the nature of God, then we would not have all the Christian denominations we have today. In general, people gain a correct understanding of the Trinity by the teachings of their church or by studying the issue directly. While the Holy Spirit may intervene and directly give this understanding to some, that is definitely not an absolute rule.

 

[John Gilmore]

Mercury,

You have added to my statement something that is not there just as you added something to Athanasian Creed that is not there.

No man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Saving faith given by the Holy Spirit is not a matter of perfect understanding of doctrine or of the nature of God. The Holy Spirit creates saving faith through the Word of God not perfect understanding.

As the Athanasian Creed states, those who reject the Word of God and worship an idol do not have the saving faith. They have faith in an idol.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
You have added to my statement something that is not there just as you added something to Athanasian Creed that is not there.

I did expand on what you said to explain why I can't agree with your statement, but I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if it came across that way.

My disagreement is with the Athanasian Creed. After outlining a number of specifics, it says "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity" (emphasis mine). The creed quite directly makes proper understanding of the Trinity a requirement of salvation. I do not believe that is true. There are many Christians who do not think of the Trinity that way simply because they've never delved into the issue that deeply. I'm pretty sure my grandmother would have used some incorrect terminology in describing the Trinity, but she did not lose her faith because of that. I do not believe people are lost solely because of their ignorance on this subject, important though it may be.

As the Athanasian Creed states, those who reject the Word of God and worship an idol do not have the saving faith. They have faith in an idol.

If that was indeed what the Athanasian Creed stated, I would have no problem with it. Instead, it says what I've quoted above. That's why I disagree with it.

 

[John Gilmore]

Mercury,

I have no trouble confessing The Athanasian Creed because I don't read things into it that are not there. A creed is a statement of biblical truth in opposition to those who would deny that biblical truth. The Athanasian Creed presents the biblical truth of the Holy Trinity and then says "He therefore that will be saved" must agree with that biblical truth. Paul says the same thing, "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

The world is full of people who deny the biblical truth of the Holy Trinity. These people think they are going to heaven (e.g., Moslems, JWs, Mormons, Oneness, etc.). The Athananasian Creed tells these people not to delude themself. Their ticket to hell is punched. To go to heaven, they must stop worshipping idols and put their trust in the one true God, "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity".

[ August 30, 2004, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]