Would you give up your rock?

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:
You contend you do not have to present evidence unless you're saying something is bad, and I just cited ("cited" is spelled with a "c" BTW) Scripture that says you must prove ALL things, and you think my position is weakened. Good gravy!

You quoted 1 Thessalonians did you not?
What I am saying is that my regimen of the CCM that I listen to withstands the test of Scripture.I find that it praises God just as much as hymns do. Your argument has been refuted.
Thanks for the relavent grammar flame which is a true sign of the level you have been reduced to.

Me:When have you ever had one single thing positive, encouraging or edifying to contribute to these forums?

Originally posted by Aaron:
You mean as positive and edifying as accusing enda of having pychological problems?

That's correct, apparently you never recieved any of the p.m.'s he has sent me and others here which could have easily gotten him banned.They are indicative of a person who needs counciling. Try getting facts once in a while, they tend to keep you from spouting off about that which you have no clue.

Originally posted by Aaron:
But here you go again making this about me. It's a common tactic of a desperate soul who knows he's losing the debate. You may have missed it, but this is a debate forum.

This has only been moved into a debate format recently. It used to be a Baptist only fellowship forum. You were exactly the same then as you are now, full of spite, self righteous, contentious, and unstoppable in your pursuit to use your status as moderator to beat everyone over the head with your unscriptural beliefs.

Originally posted by Aaron:
I save my kinder and gentler communications for PM's. I'm not here to make you feel warm and fuzzy. I'm here to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Those who rejoice in the Truth are edified. The friends of this world are not.

Then why do you attack the innocent like myself and others? You have failed on every level to demonstrate that I exalt myself 'against the knowledge of God'.

Originally posted by Aaron:
I experimented with a CCM fellowship thread where you could discuss your views safe from challenge.

Yes and for the traditional only types as well. What a pointless excerise that was huh?

Originally posted by Aaron:
Your response was to scorn the attempt and belittle the idea.

That's because it was a stupid idea. The lack of participation in both threads is irrefutable proof of that fact.

Originally posted by Aaron:
In fact all one has to do is peruse a few of your posts to see that when you come in you bully those who oppose CCM no matter how nicely they try to communicate their convictions.

Here's where I prove you wrong again with evidence that even you will not be able to deny. It's a given that you won't acknowldge it or apologise because you don't have that capability, but here it is anyway:

Originally posted by timothy 1969 on the What is my sin thread:
i think certain styles of music have meaning associated with them because of their use in our culture. in this way, musical elements are similar to words. if i want to communicate a message of rebellion, i'm going to use the musical elements which communicate that. same for anger, a feeling of power, disgust, etc. do you think this "musical language" exists? most good artists use this language with great effectiveness, imo.

if, because of our culture, certain styles of music are considered rebellious, angry, or satanic by the general public, it is a sin to be associated with it since we must avoid the appearance of sin.

some of this is cultural, but i think some of it is universal - fast, loud, distorted, beat heavy music has evolved imo because of it's effectiveness for communicating the typical messages of rock and roll.

a lot of hard rock communicates a feeling of power, anger, and rebellion. as you know, the last thing we need to feel as christians is more prideful, angry, or rebelious.

music, good music, communicates emotion, and i think it is sinful to wallow in certain emotions.

will it help me to become a humble human being if i often listen to angry, powerful, or cocky sounding music? will it help me to trust in the lord if i often listen to unsettling music, or music that powerfully communicates yearing/unfulfilled desire?

anything that separates us from god, or the kind of people he wants us to be, is sinful.

if music was truly neutral, or lacked real power to affect us, it wouldn't be nearly so captivating.

and here was my response:

Timothy: This thread is a practical application of the notion that certain musical styles can be inherently sinful. Believe it or not, your arguments have been addressed dozens of times in this forum. Just take a glance at the 16 threads I linked to and you'll see what I mean. I do appreciate your input though, and I thank you for at least being able to express an opinion to the contrary without being judgemental and condescending.

The only time, and I mean the only time I attack anyone with a contrary opinion is when they accuse me of sin and don't even bother to demonstrate what that sin is-such as you.

Originally posted by Aaron:
But now that you met someone who can't be bullied you want to cry "Foul!"

Gimme a break.

I cry foul because you refuse to answer my questions, you accuse me of sin without one shred of support, and when you are finally pinned to the floor with no room to escape you use your admin power to run away.

 

[DanielFive]

Travelsong,

Firstly, I'll comment on the slanderous remarks you make about me in your last post. I'm determined to rise above that kind of remark no matter how determined you are to do the devil's work and tempt me into an argument.

For the benefit of those reading this I will only say this.... The PM you are referring to is probably the one in which I called you an idiot. Thats all I did, nothing more, and you have no grounds to suggest I have ever sent anyone a PM which could have got me banned from the BB.

I sent you another PM in which I apologised for calling you an idiot, and then suggested that I would withdraw from the music forum for a while until I had composed myself enough to deal with the continuous baiting and goading that takes place here.

You accepted my apology and encouraged me to continue posting on the music forum. You admitted that you actually agreed with much of what I was saying and stated clearly that you hardly listened to CCM, in fact you went further in saying you despised most of it.

I'll leave others to figure out which one of us has the psychological problems.

Now, if you are done with the false accusations and slander, I'll be happy to have an adult conversation with you about your ascertion that music is morally neutral.

On the other hand if you are only interested in 'starting an argument' I will withdraw for the sake of keeping the peace.

I have no intention of 'bailing out' of this discussion provided I can get assurances from you as to your improved conduct.

I'll await your response.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
Travelsong,

Firstly, I'll comment on the slanderous remarks you make about me in your last post. I'm determined to rise above that kind of remark no matter how determined you are to do the devil's work and tempt me into an argument.

For the benefit of those reading this I will only say this.... The PM you are referring to is probably the one in which I called you an idiot. .

Yes I believe your P.M. was titled "idiot" and you told me to take a hike and go to the bar with those of like mind or something like that. Then something else along the line of me not being able to go to the bar because the degree of intelligence shown in my posts indicated I probably wasn't over the age of 14.It's called harrassment and was unchrisitan like in every respect.The point is you do not have the freedom to be sending people PM's like that.

Originally posted by enda:
Travelsong,
Thats all I did, nothing more, and you have no grounds to suggest I have ever sent anyone a PM which could have got me banned from the BB

Originally posted by Mike McK:
enda, the reason I put you on my ignore list is because when you first started posting here, you sent me a PM that was...well...let's just say it was quite unChristlike and leave it at that.

I choose not to subject myself to that and I still wonder if I should have reported you for it. It's too late now.

Anything else then there enda? Still feel like rising above?

Originally posted by enda:
I sent you another PM in which I apologised for calling you an idiot, and then suggested that I would withdraw from the music forum for a while until I had composed myself enough to deal with the continuous baiting and goading that takes place here.You accepted my apology and encouraged me to continue posting on the music forum. You admitted that you actually agreed with much of what I was saying and stated clearly that you hardly listened to CCM, in fact you went further in saying you despised most of it.

You have a strange recollection of events:

I don't think it's necessary for you to quit the music forum. I actually agree with some of what you say. I just think you need to excersise a little more discretion about passing judgement.

I do agree with some of what you say, and when Aaron isn't being a total meglomaniac I agree with some of what he says. Also, the only baiting and goating going on around here is from you.It's also no revelation that I hate much of CCM, I've stated that here many times.

Originally posted by enda:
I'll leave others to figure out which one of us has the psychological problems.

Now, if you are done with the false accusations and slander, I'll be happy to have an adult conversation with you about your ascertion that music is morally neutral.

There is nothing slanderous or false about what I said.

Originally posted by enda:
On the other hand if you are only interested in 'starting an argument' I will withdraw for the sake of keeping the peace.

I have no intention of 'bailing out' of this discussion provided I can get assurances from you as to your improved conduct.

I'll await your response.

God Bless

Enda

Nice try, but I already detect your intention to use this as a means to get out of the debate. That's entirely up to you, but I refuse to retract any of my statements. It was you who initially tried to say that our private exchanges showed that I was an entirely different person than that which I am on the public forum.To that I say hooey! If anyone can be a totally different person in private exchanges, it's you. Stop playing games and either get back on track with this discussion about music, or admit that are unable to.No more games please.

[ June 25, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Travelsong ]

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

I'll get us back on track (begin the Hero Soundtrack music!) Dum da Dum!!!

No, I will not give up my Christian Rock, unless God gives me some indication that I must do so. By the way, I'm going to see Caedmon's Call, Salvador, Big Daddy Weave, Ginny Owens, Shaun Groves, Kara, and Glassbyrd this weekend at the KSBJ 21st Anniversary concert. God will be glorified, and hopefully as in years past, the Gospel presentation will be received by many for the first time. To God be the glory!

 

[DanielFive]

Originally posted by MikeMcK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
enda, the reason I put you on my ignore list is because when you first started posting here, you sent me a PM that was...well...let's just say it was quite unChristlike and leave it at that.

I choose not to subject myself to that and I still wonder if I should have reported you for it. It's too late now. I've made my choice not to report you and I'll live with that. But I won't take you off my ignore list until your behavior vhanges to the point that I don't have to put up with any more PM's like those.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response:
I don't know if this was a genuine mistake on your part or an outright lie but I can assure you and those reading this that I have never and I repeat NEVER sent you a PM of any description let alone one of the nature you describe here. I would ask you now to put this right.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Travelsong,

If you are going to repeat false accusations against me, be Christian and post my answer to them.

You seem to be intent in distracting me from this debate by continually posting lies and unchristian remarks about me.

Do you want to entice Mike into this debate, can you not handle me on your own, is that your game.

I will not engage in further discussion with you until you are man enough to apologise for the lies you are spreading about me.

Suffice to say you are already aware that you have blown the debate on the neutrality of music in your very first post on the subject.

It only remains for me to put you out of your misery. I can see now what Aaron meant when he said you were the weakest opponent he has faced.

Please leave the name-calling and slander behind, apologise and spite the devil then we can proceed.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Could we please talk about music?

 

[DanielFive]

Joshua,

You said:

No, I will not give up my Christian Rock, unless God gives me some indication that I must do so.

The indication you are looking for can be found in the inspired Word of God.

Romans 12 : 1,2

I beseech you therefore, brethren, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.

I don't know what kind of indication you require, if you refuse to heed scripture would you believe a man if he returned from the dead?

God Bless

Enda

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Seems I've heard a Christian song with that same sentiment. Soon as I figure out which one, I'll let you know.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Still looking for that song... but here's something to chew on until then. Isn't Paul discussing a similar issue here?

What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

I listen, sing, write, and promote Christian music, because I know people who respond to that witness. I have seen people come to Christ because of the witness of other musicians. I have shared Christ with people that came to me because of my music. To limit God by saying, "YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT USE THIS MEDIUM TO REACH OUT TO THE LOST" is problematic and asinine at best. I say again: I will use whatever music, whether it be "A Mighty Fortress", "Breathe", "Holy, Holy, Holy", or "Give Me Oil in My Lamp" if it will give me the opportunity to share Christ. In the band I'm a part of, we try to be "all things to all men" and when we sing in a church that's more traditional, we use the songs they use to share THE SAME MESSAGE. When in a more contemporary environment, we use the songs they sing to share THE SAME MESSAGE. To be immovable, stoic and inflexible is to limit our ability to share the Gospel with whoever the Lord puts in our path. Of course, this is just my humble opinion, based on my view of Scripture.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Sorry... that above Scripture is 1 Corinthians 9:18-23 NASB.

 

[Travelsong]

Suffice to say you are already aware that you have blown the debate on the neutrality of music in your very first post on the subject.

I didn't blow anything. Your recollection of the facts is as horrendous as Aaron's. Allow me to once again correct you by stating that I never once said that music was neutral. I said it was morally neutral. There is a world of difference. It was your mistake in thinking that I had somehow proved myself wrong by categorizing music into classes such as "relaxing".But you were wrong. If you don't know my thoughts on the subject how can you possibly think that Aaron stood a chance against me in any debate? I've covered this exact same ground plenty of times. Admit your error and move on.


It only remains for me to put you out of your misery. I can see now what Aaron meant when he said you were the weakest opponent he has faced.

Well then answer my question already. What is my sin in regard to my enjoyment of many types of music?

 

[DanielFive]

Sorry Joshua, I've just spent over an hour replying to your post on 1 Cor 9, but I lost my response when I hit 'Add Reply'. That's the second time that has happened to me

I was looking mainly at Matthew Henrys exposition on the whole chapter which you can read HERE

The chapter is dealing with how Paul was willing to deny himself certain rights and privileges during his time at Corinth.

Honestly, I think, when taken in context, the chapter supports my view rather than yours. What do you think?

How can you apply this Scripture to the ministry of a music leader/minister, and specifically to the rock music issue.

If we can apply it, I think that it is saying that those who feel they have liberty to use rock music in worship/evangelism would for the sake of the Gospel be following Paul's example by foregoing this liberty.

Of course it is my ascertion that no-one has the liberty to use rock music because it is sinful, when Paul becomes all things to all men, there is a limit to what he will become, he never crosses the boundaries of sin.

I have no doubt that there are many non-believers who would be attracted to a church where they are going to hear rock music. On the other hand I know there are also many non-believers who scoff at the use of rock music in the church. I have witnessed this personally. It is a sad reality that many non-believers have more discernment with regards to rock music than do many servants of Christ.

I think that these people are equally important and we must be careful that our ministry does not put a stumblingblock before them. By insisting upon a perceived liberty to use rock music I feel you are fanning the flames of division among Christians today. If you consider people like myself to be of weak conscience wouldn't you say that you should forego this liberty for the sake of Christian unity, and presenting a unified church to the unbelieving world.

Any thoughts?

God Bless

Enda

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Interesting rebuttal... I'll have to think on it tomorrow morning... thanks!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Originally posted by enda:

Originally posted by Mike McK:
[qb] I sent you another PM in which I apologised for calling you an idiot, and then suggested that I would withdraw from the music forum for a while until I had composed myself enough to deal with the continuous baiting and goading that takes place here.You accepted my apology and encouraged me to continue posting on the music forum. You admitted that you actually agreed with much of what I was saying and stated clearly that you hardly listened to CCM, in fact you went further in saying you despised most of it.

Originally posted by Mike McK:
I'll leave others to figure out which one of us has the psychological problems.

Now, if you are done with the false accusations and slander, I'll be happy to have an adult conversation with you about your ascertion that music is morally neutral.

Originally posted by Mike McK:
On the other hand if you are only interested in 'starting an argument' I will withdraw for the sake of keeping the peace.

I have no intention of 'bailing out' of this discussion provided I can get assurances from you as to your improved conduct.

I'll await your response.

God Bless

Enda

Just to clarify, I did NOT say these things.

 

[DanielFive]

Sorry for the confusion Mike, Travelsong's post credited these remarks to you and I forgot to change that in my post.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by enda:
My response:
I don't know if this was a genuine mistake on your part or an outright lie but I can assure you and those reading this that I have never and I repeat NEVER sent you a PM of any description let alone one of the nature you describe here. I would ask you now to put this right.

God Bless you, Enda.

[qb]

Do you want to entice Mike into this debate, can you not handle me on your own, is that your game.

I wouldn't worry about that. As I've already explained to you, I choose not to play your games. You drew me in a couple of times and that's enough.

I'm still praying for you.

 

[Travelsong]

My fault entirely. The quotations have been changed to reflect the proper posters.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
My fault entirely. The quotations have been changed to reflect the proper posters.

Thanks. That happens sometimes when you hit "quote" and it's kind of hard to keep up with all of the "originally posted by's".

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

After having looked over the "evidence" I still haven't seen anything other than what I would consider speculation on Scripture. I don't believe that there is anything inherently wrong with Contemporary Christian Music, or Christian Modern Rock, Southern Gospel, Urban Gospel, or Contemporary Praise and Worship... Like ancient Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe if God truly found it that horribly wrong, He would take care of it. The fact that He has allowed CCM to continue, and has continuallly drawn people to Himself through it, speaks for it.

If one thing bothers me, it is a broader problem of the Christian Subculture that has arisen in the US in the last 15-20 years. We now have everything Christian, including our music, and now are comfortable in our own cliques, churches, and groups. I know I'm tempted oft to stay in those comfortable circles. But that I believe may be a discussion for another time and place.

You ask would I give up my Christian Rock. I say no. Thanks for all the arguments on either side, as you have caused me to evaluate and pray about my position again. God bless everyone here.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
If one thing bothers me, it is a broader problem of the Christian Subculture that has arisen in the US in the last 15-20 years. We now have everything Christian, including our music, and now are comfortable in our own cliques, churches, and groups. I know I'm tempted oft to stay in those comfortable circles. But that I believe may be a discussion for another time and place.

The idea that we've walled ourselves off in Christian ghettos when Christ called us to confront the culture and to make an impact for His kingdom is one of my pet peeves.

It's a bit like the drunk in the bar who says he wants to fight and makes all sorts of overtures, but knows that his friends will hold him back and he can back down and he can still keep the illusion of a big man.

You see it here all the time.

People are quick to condemn everyhing under the sun, yet, they're not willing to offer an alternative. It's easy to shout at the Devil from the safety of of our pews, where we know we're preaching to the choir but, really, what have we done to impact the world around us?