Would you give up your rock?

[Aaron]

Originally posted by baptistforever:
Can you cite examples where CCM has led to sin, by just the music itself?

You can download the IBLP order form. On page four you will find "Notice of Complaint" which is a compilation of testimonies of young people whose spiritual walks have been hindered by CCM. It's only two dollars plus shipping.

Had the wrong page number

[ October 09, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by Aaron:
You can download the IBLP order form. On page four you will find "Notice of Complaint" which is a compilation of testimonies of young people whose spiritual walks have been hindered by CCM. It's only two dollars plus shipping.

Had the wrong page number

Ok....I'm not goig to spend $2.00 care to provide anything else to support that CCM leads to sin?

 

[Ransom]

baptistforever said:

Ok....I'm not goig to spend $2.00 care to provide anything else to support that CCM leads to sin?

Here, read it for free:

Religious Rock is an Enemy

Notice that there isn't a single name attached to one of those "testimonies" by which they could be verified.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Thanks for the link Ransom!

This one is my favorite:

Witness No.8 ------------

A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Illinois

'Christian rock' was brought into my life earlier than my peers because of a weakness in my forefathers.

I would also be very interested to read the Chicago Sun Times article that quoted the AMA report. (They quoting second hand information!) I've seen lots of "documentation" like this from anti-rock people before and when I've taken the time to do the fact checking I've found that it was an inaccurate or misleading quotation.

Why didn't they quote the report itself instead of quoting the newspaper?

For what it's worth, I've never had much respect for Gothardism. However I do like Aaron, even though we disagree on many issues.

I can always count on Aaron actually reading and thinking about things I've posted instead of just giving a knee-jerk response.

 

[Ransom]

Baptist Believer said:

Why didn't they quote the report itself instead of quoting the newspaper?

Want to bet it doesn't prove what the Gothardites claim it does? This is the article if you have the resources to look it up (I, unfortunately, do not):

Brown, E. F. and Hendee, W. R., "Adolescents and Their Music: Insights Into the Health of Adolescents," in: Journal of the American Medical Association, 1989, 262, 1659-1663

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Notice that there isn't a single name attached to one of those "testimonies" by which they could be verified.

There's something else much worse I noticed about the site.

In my twelve years as a Christian I've known people who thought that if they listened to Christian music or read the right books or followed some Christian celebrity, that's how they would grow in Christ.

As a new Christian, I even did this and I would be willing to bet that some of you guys fell into this trap, too.

I hear these people saying basically the same thing, only from the other side.

There's no mention of what they were before they started listening to CCM or what level of involvement they had in their churches or where they were at in their prayer lives or how committed they were to Bible study.

There's no control group vs. variable group.

it just seems to be "I'm having problems in my spiritual life and my pastor says that rock and roll is bad. Therefore, it must be the rock and roll."

Naturally, they don't say what happened after they quit listening to CCM but I'm willing to bet that they had the same problems.

If a couple of pop songs on the radio can derail your walk with Christ, then you probably didn't have much of a walk with Christ to begin with or at the least, a very shallow one.

Mike

[ October 10, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Jim Ellis]

Give up my PETRA??? NEVER!!! I love my rock music! I especially love Jesus, He alone is my ROCK!
I am on the rock, and my name is on the roll!!!
So lets Rock 'n' Roll PETRA is what got a friend and I to start to read our bibles. On their tapes and CD's they tell where in the bible they got the ideas for their songs!
God Bless you all

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Ventura's work is authoritative and required reading in many university music history courses. It will take more than a cursory glance at a dictionary definition to debunk it.

Please, there are thousands upon thousands of "studies" done every year, one man's findings do not make his work "authoritative," this isn't an apostle we're talking about. Everyone has a personal opinion, and will often cite the examples to best support his opinion while omitting those he disagrees with. Does evolution ring a bell? A classic example of "forgetting" evidence that is obviously impossible because it disagrees witht he pre-conformed hypothesis that the researcher believes. Sorry, but I've seen way too much disinformation from seemingly "objective" analysts not to be skeptical.

Is that how you read Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8? I think it's clear in those chapters that the stronger are to defer to the consciences of the weaker. And since you refer to us who oppose sensual forms of worship as those who "can't handle" it, you obviously view us as weaker.

What saith the Scriptures, Teresa?

I once heard a PBU professor quote Martin Luther:
"If it is the case of a weaker brother, I will curtail my rights. If it is a case of legalism, I will flaunt them." (I'm trying to verify the quote, but the internet doesn't have much)
So is this a case of a weaker brother? I don't believe so because I don't believe that Christian rock, or even some secular rock, is wrong. The Bible just doesn't support such a view, thus I think that this is legalism.

 

[Eric B]

Great points.
I cover all of this on my page: CCM Controversy (greatly updated since last year)
and particularly the sections Scientific studies and Natural effects Subjectivity, Preference and Conscience
(Aaron's first reply to me was that it was "non-sequitur", but this whole music issue is one big fat non-sequitur)

[ October 11, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Aaron]

There is too much here to which I can adequately respond. So I'll pick one or two.

Ransom said about Notice of Complaint:
Notice that there isn't a single name attached to one of those "testimonies" by which they could be verified.

The implication that IBLP is somehow attempting to mislead anyone or some other way disingenuous is in reprehensible bad faith.

It's also very bad form.

A reactionary ex-alumnus, Al Menconi, has written a book dedicated to refuting Gothard's positions. Though he is adamant in his oppostion to those positions, he no where suggests that Gothard in any of his materials is being intentionally misleading.

http://www.almenconi.com/resources/books/gothsmpl.html

JonathanDT said about Michael Ventura's Hear that Long Snake Moan:
Please, there are thousands upon thousands of "studies" done every year, one man's findings do not make his work "authoritative," this isn't an apostle we're talking about. Everyone has a personal opinion, and will often cite the examples to best support his opinion while omitting those he disagrees with.

I would suggest you read the work before you summarily dismiss it. Ventura is not anti-rock at all. He's all for it.
Click Here.

Baptist Believer said:
However I do like Aaron, even though we disagree on many issues.

I can always count on Aaron actually reading and thinking about things I've posted instead of just giving a knee-jerk response.

Thank you for that!

[ October 11, 2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Aaron:
[QB]The implication that IBLP is somehow attempting to mislead anyone or some other way disingenuous is in reprehensible bad faith.

From what I read, it certainly seems that they are being disingenuous.

A reactionary ex-alumnus, Al Menconi, has written a book dedicated to refuting Gothard's positions. Though he is adamant in his oppostion to those positions, he no where suggests that Gothard in any of his materials is being intentionally misleading.

I've read several of Menconi's books and his column in CCM.

I've found him to be fair and his opinions to be well thought out, even though I don't always agree with him.

http://www.almenconi.com/resources/books/gothsmpl.html

Mike

 

[redwhitenblue]

One reason in particular I will never ever rely on the study/s of human work is because it's subject to flawlessness. You can swear up and down that it's firm foundational truth but fact is it's just the same as those humanistic studies about how to raise a child, keeping in mind that those people have also done in depth studies but what did they lack?? God's word and wisdom. You can bring it down to technical beats and how to dance to them....please show me in God's word where it's wrong to dance...please show me where God's word backs up those same studies word for word. They are studies done by HUMANS...they can be and often times are wrong, I'm not saying never use other's findings as helpful notes however using them as gospel truth to back up your point of view...be cautious of doing so you could end up eating crow one day.

Karen

 

[Odemus]

All I know is that if I was so sexually frustrated that guitars and saxaphones made me lust after other women I would be looking at my own life and marriage to determine where the problem resided rather than taking those very same frustrations out on other brothers and sisters.For pete's sake, attend a family life marriage conference or something, attend to your wife, give your thought life to God, but don't go judging everyone else for your own problems.That's my rant.

 

[Helen]

Bored and nursing a nasty cold, so I took a look at this thread and started laughing.

The waltz was considered not only sensuous but practically blasphemous when it was first popularized. Now it is classical music.

Sir Arthur Sullivan, of Gilbert and Sullivan fame, was villianized by classical music and opera afficiandos for teaming up with Gilbert to produce light operas such as "Pirates of Penzance" and "Iolanthe" etc.

Now they also are classics and considered magnificent for their music.

Just wanted to add that.

 

[timothy 1769]

i used to really, really be into rock music - led zeppelin, pink floyd, rush, that sort of thing. most of my life i've been an atheist, and that music filled a spiritual void in my life. when i was a teenager, it was arguably the most important thing in the world to me.

these days (i was saved 9 months ago, the culmination of a 4 year process) i don't listen to them anymore - not because i made a definite decision not to (i still have them around, somewhere) it's just that almost always these days i want to listen to music that honors god, or failing that, doesn't dishonor him.

more recently i used to listen a lot of third day and steven curtis chapman, but even that's starting to taper off dramatically. but thank god such music was available! if it wasn't i would have probably felt very tempted to listen my old secular stuff just to get the old feel...

i think often the same thing (say, a third day album) can be a stumbling block to one person, and step up for another. it all depends on where you're at and where you're heading, IMO. keep your mind on the lord, and he'll take you where he wants you to be. i don't think this an area where any kind of forced righteousness will help. IMO, YMMV, RSVP, USMC, PhD.

ps - i'm not saying that all people listen to christian rock just to get that "high", but that was one of it's main attractions for me.

[ October 13, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: am ha'aretz ]

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by am ha'aretz:
...these days (i was saved 9 months ago, the culmination of a 4 year process)...

Praise God! Welcome to the family ha'aretz!

~Teresa~

 

[timothy 1769]

Praise God! Welcome to the family ha'aretz!

thanks!

[ October 14, 2002, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: am ha'aretz ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Helen:
The waltz was considered not only sensuous but practically blasphemous when it was first popularized. Now it is classical music.

A Brief History of Christian Music

The Origins of Unnatural (Carnal) Rhythms

 

[Ransom]

It's also very bad form.

Speaking of bad form, Aaron, what do you think of inventing people's arguments for them?

Nowhere did I claim, as you insinuate:

that IBLP is somehow attempting to mislead anyone or some other way disingenuous

I simply pointed out that the IBLP materials use anonymous testimonies. Whether or not they do that to deceive is beside the point. In fact, the reason I pointed it out is because, either way, it is a logical fallacy to appeal to anonymous authority.

Since we have no way to verify the testimonies of these anonymous teens, we have no way to evaluate the reliability of their testimony. It is as simple as that.

 

[Odemus]

I wonder what the reaction of those in Aaron's camp would be if their eyes were suddenly opened to the truth that:

1) The vast majority of Christians are not given to lust and various other sins because of any particular style of music they happen to enjoy.

2) [edited irresponsible and invidious accusation.]

This does go to show just what happens when the misdirected in the body try to adopt unscriptural fringe doctrines and drag them into the core of our faith.

[ October 16, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]