Would you give up your rock?

[Aaron]

Ransom,

Teresa asked, "Can you cite examples where CCM has led to sin, by just the music itself?"

So I did.

Did I present them as truthful examples? Of course. They are truthful. That has never been disputed, not even by Menconi who knows Gothard personally.

Did I present them as authoritative? Hardly. In fact where have I ever invoked these testimonials before? Never, and I am not trying to prove a point with them now.

In fact, Odemus in another place in this forum* attempted to assert personal experience as authoritative evindence for his stand, saying:

Beside there not being any Scriptural basis for asserting that music in and of itself can be inherently sinful or elicit a sinful reaction in someone there is another pragmatic approach against this silly argument.It's called experience.I assert that I have never once in my entire life been enticed to sin by listening to music of any kind (without words of course).

To which I replied:

For every personal experience you cite as evidence, I can cite one as evidence to the contrary. Personal experience is weak evidence at best and not at all authoritative.

Here is your statement again:

Notice that there isn't a single name attached to one of those "testimonies" by which they could be verified.

How else would any objective lurker take it? Had I written it you would have arrived at the same conclusion. You should perhaps take more care to actually write what you intend say.

* http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000286#000005

 

[Odemus]

Music still isn't causing me to sin, go ahead and cite that example you are so positive will show the contrary.

[ October 16, 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Odemus]

By the way, since I have never met a Christian (or any other human being for that matter) who says that a musical style causes them to sin I am forced to believe that it must cause you to sin becaue you're the only person I've ever seen talk such nonesense.

It's like the harsh taskmasters who enforce strict dress codes because they think that girls in pants cause lust, when in reality all they are saying is that girls in pants cause THEM to lust.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

The purpose of this board is for discussion on issues pertinent to Christian and Baptist life. It is NOT intended as a platform for an attack on any individual for their views.

Upon registration, each member agreed to abide by a list of posting rules. #3 on this list reads as follows:

3. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.

The line between debating an issue and personal attack is being crossed in this thread and if it continues, I will implement the right of this board to permanently revoke posting privileges.

If you have PERSONAL issues with a member or moderator on this board then try to work them out privately rather than posting slanderous insults. It is detrimental to your own witness and the overall ministry of this board. If you can't work things out privately with the other member, please PM or e-mail the other moderator or one of the administrators. We will be happy to work with you in any way we can to bring about a reconciliation. Posting deliberate insults will only result in your being suspended or banned.

This is not an encroachment on your right to hold and voice an opinion on a matter. This is, however, a reminder that this is a PRIVATE web site with no membership fees that retains the right to set rules and policies that we expect to be obeyed.

Clint Kritzer
Administrator

[ October 16, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Odemus:
It's like the harsh taskmasters who enforce strict dress codes because they think that girls in pants cause lust, when in reality all they are saying is that girls in pants cause THEM to lust.

I'm wondering who enforces dress codes for such a reason.

I don't want this to go in the direction of dress codes, but dealing with this point only as an example of music, I will say this.

The reason law exists is not because we are righteous, but because we are sinful. I was watching a Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War (

), and there was a segment about the requirements for army hospital nurses. It basically boiled down to this: No young attractive women need apply. Why? Because the officers knew what we in this age deny. They knew that the hearts of men were sinful, and that the wounded men would be more prone to fall in love with the the young, pretty girls lending them aid and comfort and would lust after them against their wives.

They didn't want the young soldiers thinking of them as wives, they wanted them thinking of them as mothers.

And so why is there any dress code at all? Not because the appearance of women in various modes of undress somehow spontaneously generates a seed of lust in an otherwise pure heart, but because it awakens the defiled nature that is already there. We know that a pure heart will not lust in the presence of nakedness. The narrative of Adam and Eve teaches as much. Would you go as far as to say that church members may foregather in the buff?

Like it or not, that is the logical end of your premise.

The same applies to music. Some music appeals to our carnal natures, and some does not. One only needs to observe what the world holds in high esteem to discern the differences between them.

 

[Ransom]

Aaron said:

Did I present them as truthful examples? Of course. They are truthful. That has never been disputed, not even by Menconi who knows Gothard personally.

Perhaps you should give me a good reason why it would be intellectually responsible for me to merely accept Gothard's ipse dixit without more rigorous evidence.

Never, and I am not trying to prove a point with them now.

Looks like you were trying to prove a point to me:

Teresa asked, "Can you cite examples where CCM has led to sin, by just the music itself?"

So I did.

QED.

In fact, Odemus in another place in this forum* attempted to assert personal experience as authoritative evindence for his stand

Non sequitur. I may not know who Odemus is, and anything he says has to be judged by my perception of his reliability. However, Odemus is not an anonymous authority.

Here is your statement again:

Notice that there isn't a single name attached to one of those "testimonies" by which they could be verified.

How else would any objective lurker take it?

There is no such thing as an "objective lurker," but supposing there were, a truly objective lurker would take my words to mean precisely what they say: those testimonies were anonymous. We may disagree on the interpretation of that brute fact, but nonetheless it is a brute fact.

Had I written it you would have arrived at the same conclusion.

You are correct. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy no matter who commits it.

 

[Aaron]

Ransom,

Boiled down, our dispute is this:

You said I misunderstood your post.

I said anyone else not embroiled in our debate would have taken your post exactly the way I did.

You said I was appealing to anonymous authority.

I said I wasn't. I was merely citing "examples" as was requested, and posted an example of my custom of rejecting personal experience as authoritative evidence.

This is the last I will say about that.

 

[Pete]

"[edited irresponsible and invidious accusation.]"

Good thing I didn't reply to that point when thought about it yesterday, my whole post would probably have had to be squished

Pete

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I didn't even touch it until I had calmed down a little.

 

[extremebiblereader]

I would like to comment on this question that was asked. I would actually give up my rock music, I was dared to for 6 mo. and I did it and I completely stopped listening to it, for a long time. So, it is a good thing if you want to do it. And if you feel led in that direction. I would do it again if someone challenged me, it was fun in a way to see if I could resist temeptation. I know that I am not supposed to be listening to it in the first place, so why not.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by extremebiblereader:
I know that I am not supposed to be listening to it in the first place, so why not.

Why not?

 

[Matticus]

This is really a pretty silly argument. First, this whole sensual thing does not make sense, and probably never will make sense, to me. Music is music. No matter what style it is, it causes you to react both physically and mentally. Some positive, some negative. Whether is is positive or negative has nothing to do with what style of music it is! Some classical music elicits negative reactions from me. Some rock music does. Lots of rock and classical elicit positive responses.

Matt

 

[extremebiblereader]

alot of rock music no wait all of rock music effects my attitude for the worse and prevents me from serving God the way I should. So why listen to something that would do that to you. And this is proven that the reason why a lot of people have heart attacks, more in the teens also is because of rock music, its beat is off beat with your heart and therefore causes your heart to malfunction. And I also believe that it is in the Bible somewhere not sure where, I think the O.T but I don't read the O.T. much. So I wouldn't be able to tell you.

ME

 

[A.J.Armitage]

Aaron;

Is that how you read Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8? I think it's clear in those chapters that the stronger are to defer to the consciences of the weaker. And since you refer to us who oppose sensual forms of worship as those who "can't handle" it, you obviously view us as weaker.
What saith the Scriptures, Teresa?

You seem to be saying that if some consider rock music sinful, no Christian should listen to it. If you let that go to its logical conclusion, no Christian would ever do anything, but let's look at one thing in particular: if your logic were good for music, it would certainly be good for the actual topic discussed by those Scriptures, meat. There are certainly those for whom eating, not just meat sacrificed to idols, but all meat, is cause for sin. Follow the same logic, and you'd be commanding to abstain from meats!

 

[Aaron]

A.J.,

I don't invoke 1 Cor. 8 or Romans 14 in my case against CCM. I argued that as a rebuttal to the "Christian liberty" or "personal convictions" arguments.

But you are wrong to suppose that the commandment to walk in love is equal to the commandment to abstain from meats, though by the outward appearance it may look the same.

I agree that we would NOT do many of the things we do as Christians if we truly loved our brothers.

 

[Ransom]

extremebiblereader said:

alot of rock music no wait all of rock music effects my attitude for the worse and prevents me from serving God the way I should. So why listen to something that would do that to you.

Correction: would do that to you. It has no such effect on me or many others on this forum.

Please do not commit the error of assuming your own weaknesses are shared by everyone in Christianity. Thanks.

And this is proven that the reason why a lot of people have heart attacks, more in the teens also is because of rock music, its beat is off beat with your heart and therefore causes your heart to malfunction.

Uh huh. According to what reputable, peer-reviewed, medical journal?

And I also believe that it is in the Bible somewhere not sure where, I think the O.T but I don't read the O.T. much. So I wouldn't be able to tell you.

So I wouldn't be able to believe you.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Originally posted by extremebiblereader:
alot of rock music no wait all of rock music effects my attitude for the worse and prevents me from serving God the way I should. So why listen to something that would do that to you.
ME

You're right, you shouldn't. And I will do my best not to play it in your presence. In fact, I would go as far as to find music you can worship to and learn some of it so that we can worship together. I believe that is in keeping with what Paul said about becomming all things to all people. . . not necessarily to win some to Christ, but to show our love for each other and communion under one Spirit.

The other side of that is for all the testimonies of people who were adversely affected by more contemporary styles of music, I could give you testimonies of people who worshipped God deeply, were encouraged, restored, were saved. . . NOT by the music but by the presence of the Spirit of God.

Let's not spiritualize the human made "forms" (such as music). Hopefully we all remember that everything, including the best things that man/woman creates are tainted by sin and are not worthy of God (I'm talking the most elevating and best loved hymns as well).

It is the heart intention behind the music that I think is more important.

Brett

 

[Matticus]

I agree that we would NOT do many of the things we do as Christians if we truly loved our brothers.

There are two things that would happen if everyone truly loved their brothers and sisters: 1. people would be willing to do as Brett suggested.

2. People would be able to agree to disagree

God Bless

Matt

 

[extremebiblereader]

Ransom,
First,

alot of rock music no wait all of rock music effects my attitude for the worse and prevents me from serving God the way I should. So why listen to something that would do that to you.

Correction: would do that to you. It has no such effect on me or many others on this forum.

Please do not commit the error of assuming your own weaknesses are shared by everyone in Christianity. Thanks.

When I stated that, I was stating it for my own conviction,or my own standard. I wasn't trying to imply that everyone is effected by rock music. B/c I have friends that listen to it, who aren't effect by it.

Second,

And this is proven that the reason why a lot of people have heart attacks, more in the teens also is because of rock music, its beat is off beat with your heart and therefore causes your heart to malfunction.

Actually I can't remember where I heard that, might have been in a news paper. But my biology teacher two years ago confirmed it.

 

[Brett Valentine]

. . .Second,

And this is proven that the reason why a lot of people have heart attacks, more in the teens also is because of rock music, its beat is off beat with your heart and therefore causes your heart to malfunction.

Actually I can't remember where I heard that, might have been in a news paper. But my biology teacher two years ago confirmed it.[/QB]

. . .I'm not entirely sure, but I think I remember something similar, but I'm pretty sure they were more concerned with the extreme volume and high spl (sound pressure levels) generated.

When I was younger, I remember seeing a local band playing in a small club on Long Island. For one set, I remember standing in front of the bass player's speaker "array." He had what could only be described as a horn from a public address system (it was HUGE) sitting on top of what had to be a 22" speaker!

You couldn't really "hear" or distinguish what he was playing (. . .only barely if you put your fingers in your ears), but you could feel your chest vibrate. It was literally like someone was hitting you in the chest with the flat of their hand!

I can understand how something like that could mess with someone's heart (especially if they had some sort of problem). It was almost like getting a heart massage!

It was literally volume for volume's sake. The guitarist was just as loud, and the drums (believe it or not, the quietest instrument) had to be miced just to keep up!

I don't go to concerts like that anymore. . . I don't play concerts like that anymore!

Brett