The Pastor is Bob Botsford...
.... senior pastor at Horizon Christian Fellowship in Rancho Santa Fe, CA.
.... senior pastor at Horizon Christian Fellowship in Rancho Santa Fe, CA.
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Would You Let a Known Lesbian Perform at Your Church???
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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I refuse to think that someone with TGC would approve of a gay choir "performing". Unfathomable.
That's why I'm wondering if they even knew although I do think it's prudent to know just who you are renting your facilities out to. We don't rent our facilities out to anyone. The ONLY outside group that is allowed to meet at our church is our homeschool group which is run by all church members. Otherwise? It's all church ministries.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Are you a lesbian or a gay if you're not practicing? Or are you just a chaste person?
Actually I'd suggest both are disqualified from leading.
Its not an either/or proposition. You live in sin you are disqualified from leadership. Not difficult imho.
The outline for qualifications for leadership in the local church seem fairly straightforward to me.
As to the main question, we would not welcome nor support any worship gathering led by someone living in open sin.
Our church has a leadership covenant. In that covenant we outline what we believe to be qualifications for leadership, conditions of leadership, and a commitment to leadership. This area falls outside of what Scripture deems acceptable for leadership.
Are you asking me if I am a lesbian? The answer is no. I am a divorced woman leading a chaste life in obedience to my Lord. (1 Cor. 7:8)
Both the homosexual and the man addicted to pornography? I'd agree with you. Unfortunately it may not be easy to distinguish who is in secret sin.
Definitely agree with you there.
That seems very prudent to me.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No. The "you" part of the question is a rhetoric. Is a person gay if they choose not to act on that desire and live a life absent of that type of thing?
If a person identifies themselves as a gay who is celibate, they still see homoexuality as something to identify themselves and in that case, there is still work to be done in their lives. If they identify themselves as formerly homosexual, that's a different story.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Is a former homosexual still attracted to the same sex? If so but they do not act on those feelings is that a disqualifier? Or must they be purged of those feelings all together. Like an alchoholic who still desires alchohol but does not give in to the sin of drinking?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I think most understand the Bible on the matter. This woman was declaring her sinful behavior to be in sync with being a Christian. It is not. I cannot say that I am a Christian and a drunk. Nor can I say I am a Christian and a sodomite.
Perhaps there is a greater question here and that is, "What is a Christian?"
It seems to me that many churches have forgotten or been decieved into believing something else... that when a person becomes a Christian that they are re-created into a new creation. The old things have passed away, and all things have become new.
That they are crucified with Christ and raised with Him. Temptation is not sin. Acting both in mind and body to temptation is. And each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust.
If a brother or sister sins, they must repent. Not stand and say "Behold my sin and I am a Christian!" This person is a liar. You cannot fellowship with darkness and claim to walk in the light.
Perhaps there is a greater question here and that is, "What is a Christian?"
It seems to me that many churches have forgotten or been decieved into believing something else... that when a person becomes a Christian that they are re-created into a new creation. The old things have passed away, and all things have become new.
That they are crucified with Christ and raised with Him. Temptation is not sin. Acting both in mind and body to temptation is. And each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust.
If a brother or sister sins, they must repent. Not stand and say "Behold my sin and I am a Christian!" This person is a liar. You cannot fellowship with darkness and claim to walk in the light.
It's not our job to ferret out secret sin. We deal with the results, exercise grace for restoration and uphold God's standards for leadership.
The issue addressed in the OP isn't about secret sin, it is about open sin. You can't try to be junior Holy Spirit for everyone and figure everyone's sin out. We can only deal with those who openly profess and guard against the working out of such sin through the banner of our ministry.
The secret sin thing is a red herring imho.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I'm not defending the woman. Rather, I'm asking a question regarding a delemma that may exist. A person has become a christian yet still has homosexual attraction, Yet realizing this they don't ever act on it nor accept it as appropiate behavior. Where do they stand? Are they disqualified? Is an alchoholic who has given up drinking disqualified though they could easily fall back. What then?
saturneptune
New Member
Your local church has a leadership covenant, and stops at the walls of your church. Every local church is autonomous and sets their own standards. You said in your post "You live in sin you are disqualified from leadership." A few lines down, you said "we would not welcome nor support any worship gathering led by someone living in open sin." So my first question, which is it, living in sin, or living in open sin? My second question is, if it is sin one is living in, I assume since you are in a leadership position, you have lots of 24 hour sinless days?
Open sin that brings puts a local church in a bad light would surely disqualify a person for leadership for a season, but that list of sins is not limited to your opinion of the serverity of sins. While that would include an open lesbian lifestyle, which seems to be the subject of this thread, it would also include the deacon who thinks he runs the church and decides who can and cannot join a local congregation, or a deacon who constantly berates or puts up roadblocks to a pastor. Also disqualified for leadership would be the local church gossips, backbiters, the prideful and arrogant, and the gluttons, just as much as the drunkards, sexually immoral, and thieves.
mcdirector
Active Member
Trevin Wax has some thoughts on his blog about this. Here are the highlights:
1. We need to shift emphasis from the truth that “everyone is a sinner” to the necessity of repentance.
2. We must not allow ourselves to be defined by our sexual attractions.
3. We must expose the arrogance and judgmentalism of those who would so flippantly dismiss the witness of Christians for two thousand years.
4. We need soft hearts toward Christians struggling with same-sex attraction.
There is some good, thoughtful commentary in between those points. Point one seems key to me.
1. We need to shift emphasis from the truth that “everyone is a sinner” to the necessity of repentance.
2. We must not allow ourselves to be defined by our sexual attractions.
3. We must expose the arrogance and judgmentalism of those who would so flippantly dismiss the witness of Christians for two thousand years.
4. We need soft hearts toward Christians struggling with same-sex attraction.
There is some good, thoughtful commentary in between those points. Point one seems key to me.
Thanks for the Blog
While I appreciate your taking the time to post this Blog, I would only say, that there is no lack of compassion in regard to the singer, nor was there a lack of the call for her to repent. She stubbornly refused to acknowledge that her homosexuality was the problem, while she placed the blame on a pastor who stuck by the Word, told her he still loved her, but, could not accept her choice, which was sinful in the eyes of God, therefore he denounced her sin.
Most importantly, we must not forget that the Scripture does not allow for "a soft heart" when it comes to allowing this person, or, any other person to sing in a church when they are proclaiming to the world that their sinful choice is not wrong. I find it hard to believe that a God who hates sin, would allow for us to be soft on her sin, or, any other persons sin, especially if that sin was being flaunted in outward way.
Paul does not mince his words in Romans 1:26-28 -"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity." and, 1Co 5:5 - "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
It does not sound as if God, or, the church is permitted to have a "soft heart" toward a believer who is caught up in sin, and stubbornly holding to their faith, publicly. This kind of testimony and witness to the public makes a mockery of a Just God, and misleads others, who are questioning their sexuality.
My daughter is as stiffnecked as this singer in regard to her Christianity and her homosexuality being acceptable in the eyes of God. And she would take this singers position of popularity as being another point of support for her to continue in her sin.
I'm sorry, but, IMHO, your blog writer is not 100% in-tune with God's Word.
While I appreciate your taking the time to post this Blog, I would only say, that there is no lack of compassion in regard to the singer, nor was there a lack of the call for her to repent. She stubbornly refused to acknowledge that her homosexuality was the problem, while she placed the blame on a pastor who stuck by the Word, told her he still loved her, but, could not accept her choice, which was sinful in the eyes of God, therefore he denounced her sin.
Most importantly, we must not forget that the Scripture does not allow for "a soft heart" when it comes to allowing this person, or, any other person to sing in a church when they are proclaiming to the world that their sinful choice is not wrong. I find it hard to believe that a God who hates sin, would allow for us to be soft on her sin, or, any other persons sin, especially if that sin was being flaunted in outward way.
Paul does not mince his words in Romans 1:26-28 -"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity." and, 1Co 5:5 - "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
It does not sound as if God, or, the church is permitted to have a "soft heart" toward a believer who is caught up in sin, and stubbornly holding to their faith, publicly. This kind of testimony and witness to the public makes a mockery of a Just God, and misleads others, who are questioning their sexuality.
My daughter is as stiffnecked as this singer in regard to her Christianity and her homosexuality being acceptable in the eyes of God. And she would take this singers position of popularity as being another point of support for her to continue in her sin.
I'm sorry, but, IMHO, your blog writer is not 100% in-tune with God's Word.
Well, since he was talking about a believer, Matthew 18 would apply. There are steps to take and then if the person caught up in the sin won't stop and repent, we are to stop fellowshipping with that person.
All sins are not equal. The consequences of some make much more of an impact on lives than others do. But the op was only about homosexuality and there no need to bring anything else into the discussion. It just doesn't advance it and is off topic.
Not relevant to the op
oh no it can't be worse. You just implied that all sins are equal.
No one said we shouldn't. But liberals always have to defend homosexuality by bringing up other sins. If you are worried about coming down on gossipers why not start a gossip thread in stead of being off topic.
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