Would you stay?

[Adonia]

I do not interpret the Scriptures. Scripture needs no interpreter, Scripture speaks with clarity as to exactly what God wants us to know and how much God wants us to know. Scripture interprets (clarifies) Scripture. Do not go beyond what is written.

Don't be silly, of course you interpret them. If you didn't, then we would both be on the same page on every bit of the New Testament, but we aren't. The Scriptures just didn't come from nowhere, they were collated by the leaders of the newly emerging Christian Church. Councils and synods were formed, doctrines were established, heresies were fought, things were decided and it was all done by live human beings. The Scriptures were there as a guide, they did nothing by themselves.

 

[steaver]

Don't be silly, of course you interpret them. If you didn't, then we would both be on the same page on every bit of the New Testament, but we aren't. The Scriptures just didn't come from nowhere, they were collated by the leaders of the newly emerging Christian Church. Councils and synods were formed, doctrines were established, heresies were fought, things were decided and it was all done by live human beings. The Scriptures were there as a guide, they did nothing by themselves.

No need to interpret, just read and study the full counsel God gave us. The Apostles wrote as the Holy Spirit instructed. God gave us teachers and preachers to guide us through the Scriptures, not as interpreters. The Scripture says what it says, it is not difficult. Creeds are from men, some portions are accurate, some are flawed with conjecture. Yet the Scripture itself is perfect. It's all one needs. The reason Christians are not all on the "same page" is bc of conjecture and opinions. But you are Catholic, correct? Catholics have to believe what they are told to believe.

 

[steaver]

Don't be silly, of course you interpret them.

Maybe you could give an example of a scripture passage that needs to be interpreted by an outside source apart from the Bible?

 

[Adonia]

No need to interpret, just read and study the full counsel God gave us. The Apostles wrote as the Holy Spirit instructed. God gave us teachers and preachers to guide us through the Scriptures, not as interpreters. The Scripture says what it says, it is not difficult. Creeds are from men, some portions are accurate, some are flawed with conjecture. Yet the Scripture itself is perfect. It's all one needs. The reason Christians are not all on the "same page" is bc of conjecture and opinions. But you are Catholic, correct? Catholics have to believe what they are told to believe.

Catholics believe what the Catholic Church says because we believe that it is the proper authority here on earth in matters of faith and it was given that authority by God Himself who was incarnated as man in the form of Jesus Christ. Too many "Christians" have strayed over the centuries, following men instead of the Church.

The "teachers" and "preachers" you talk about are just interpreters of the Holy Word, nothing more, nothing less. No matter how you describe them they are interpreters, imparting to you the "truth" of what they have come up with as they have "studied" the Scriptures. There is no shame in believing this, every preacher from every Christian sect does this, even yours - that is Christendom's reality.

 

[Adonia]

Maybe you could give an example of a scripture passage that needs to be interpreted by an outside source apart from the Bible?

Maybe you are right. When Jesus said regarding worship that: "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood" no interpretation is needed - there can be only one conclusion, right? If the Scriptures speaks for itself, then my example is true. Jesus said what he meant and meant what He said, so there can be no other conclusion - that in what we know as Holy Communion it is His body and blood. Yes, you must be right.

 

[Walter]

deleted by me

 

[utilyan]

Maybe you could give an example of a scripture passage that needs to be interpreted by an outside source apart from the Bible?

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


No one in the world, with bible alone, will read this and conclude the exact opposite without "help".

 

[atpollard]

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


No one in the world, with bible alone, will read this and conclude the exact opposite without "help".

Unless of course they read the whole book of James and understood the basic point he was making. Nowhere does James even come close to advocating following the OT Law to earn salvation.

Quote mining is a dangerous thing ... with or without a teacher.

 

[steaver]

Maybe you are right. When Jesus said regarding worship that: "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood" no interpretation is needed - there can be only one conclusion, right? If the Scriptures speaks for itself, then my example is true. Jesus said what he meant and meant what He said, so there can be no other conclusion - that in what we know as Holy Communion it is His body and blood. Yes, you must be right.

Yes, one conclusion. Did you search and study the full counsel of God's Word so you could come to the correct conclusion? Or did you come to your conclusion by listening to outside of scripture conjectures from men?

 

[steaver]

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


No one in the world, with bible alone, will read this and conclude the exact opposite without "help".

Help from who? Men with an agenda to control the people? Did you search and study the full counsel of God's Word so you could come to the correct conclusion? Did you even bother to study the chapter from which this sentence is extracted from? If you did, you would find Jame's explanation and his conclusion. Abraham's works fulfilled Abraham's "said" faith. The works justified Abraham's confession of faith.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


•(James 2:14-26).
•Verse 22 - “Faith” made “perfect”. “perfect” – “teleioo” – “fulfill”.
•Verse 23 - “the scripture was fulfilled” - what scripture was fulfilled? – “which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:”
•So if we say we “believe in the LORD” is our “said faith” justified and fulfilled by how we respond to God’s direction for how we should live our lives as professing believers?
•So when the scripture said “Abraham believed God” (Genesis 15) – How was it fulfilled? How do we know Abraham believed God? – when Abraham obeyed God by doing what God asked him to do.

It's all right there. No need for "help" from any outside source apart from the Scripture itself. And we could go to the Apostle Paul as well with additional conformation that a soul is justified by "Faith alone" and the soul's "Confession" is made perfect, fulfilled, justified by the soul's "Works". However, the ONLY works that will justify "said faith" is if that faith is in the Son of God and the confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And Jame's concludes, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Why yes I do James, because I took the time to read your full explanation and i also know what your fellow Apostle Paul had to say about justification through works. Thank you James for explaining what you were talking about because if you hadn't explained it by using Abraham as an example men would want to twist what you said into some sort of justification by works apart from any faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

[steaver]

The "teachers" and "preachers" you talk about are just interpreters of the Holy Word, nothing more, nothing less. No matter how you describe them they are interpreters, imparting to you the "truth" of what they have come up with as they have "studied" the Scriptures. There is no shame in believing this, every preacher from every Christian sect does this, even yours - that is Christendom's reality.

I find it very shameful. The good preachers/teachers I have listened to will emphasize the Word of God and that they are only there to guide their listeners through the Word. If I or any good preacher/teacher says "this means......" it will not because they think they have some sort of special revelation, or that they are offering a personal interpretation, they will guide their listeners through supporting Scripture which does the interpreting, they are just guides for the people. GOOD TEACHERS DO NOT INTERPRET, THEY SEARCH THE SCRIPTURE AND LET THE SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE. Then they give their OPINION/ADVICE on how we can or should apply the Word of God to our lives.

 

[steaver]

Too many "Christians" have strayed over the centuries, following men instead of the Church.

Therein lies the problem, you speak truth and don't even see the problem. Following the Church and following men is one in the same. Here is what you should be saying and realize, "Too many "Christians" have strayed over the centuries, following men instead of the Word of God.

 

[utilyan]

Help from who? Men with an agenda to control the people? Did you search and study the full counsel of God's Word so you could come to the correct conclusion? Did you even bother to study the chapter from which this sentence is extracted from? If you did, you would find Jame's explanation and his conclusion. Abraham's works fulfilled Abraham's "said" faith. The works justified Abraham's confession of faith.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


•(James 2:14-26).
•Verse 22 - “Faith” made “perfect”. “perfect” – “teleioo” – “fulfill”.
•Verse 23 - “the scripture was fulfilled” - what scripture was fulfilled? – “which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:”
•So if we say we “believe in the LORD” is our “said faith” justified and fulfilled by how we respond to God’s direction for how we should live our lives as professing believers?
•So when the scripture said “Abraham believed God” (Genesis 15) – How was it fulfilled? How do we know Abraham believed God? – when Abraham obeyed God by doing what God asked him to do.

It's all right there. No need for "help" from any outside source apart from the Scripture itself. And we could go to the Apostle Paul as well with additional conformation that a soul is justified by "Faith alone" and the soul's "Confession" is made perfect, fulfilled, justified by the soul's "Works". However, the ONLY works that will justify "said faith" is if that faith is in the Son of God and the confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And Jame's concludes, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Why yes I do James, because I took the time to read your full explanation and i also know what your fellow Apostle Paul had to say about justification through works. Thank you James for explaining what you were talking about because if you hadn't explained it by using Abraham as an example men would want to twist what you said into some sort of justification by works apart from any faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

James 2

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


Try to twist this line. Answer his question.

 

[steaver]

James 2

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


Try to twist this line. Answer his question.

LOL. James answered it, explained it for us even. What don;t you understand? Just saying you have faith and not having any evidence of your faith is USELESS at best and hell bound at worst. Can it even save you James asked? It must be true genuine faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ which if present produces good works as evidence your said faith is truly from being born from above.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[utilyan]

LOL. James answered it, explained it for us even. What don;t you understand? Just saying you have faith and not having any evidence of your faith is USELESS at best and hell bound at worst. Can it even save you James asked? It must be true genuine faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ which if present produces good works as evidence your said faith is truly from being born from above.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Its a Yes or No Question.

Lets hear it:

James 2

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

 

[steaver]

Its a Yes or No Question.

Lets hear it:

James 2

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

LOL. He isn't speaking to me. I'm not the foolish fellow, I know faith without works is dead. I also know what James means by dead because I read his whole explanation. No need for any group of men with their own conjecture apart from Scripture to explain it, who actually argue against Scripture. James and Paul do just fine.

 

[Walter]

Relevant to the OP and
for all who are sickened and angry about what 'priests' have done. Thank you, Fr. Lankeit!

 

[KJVOBible]

I would never be a part of a church that teaches such heresies as the RCC to begin with, so there is that.

 

[Walter]

I would never be a part of a church that teaches such heresies as the RCC to begin with, so there is that.

Totally off-topic. If you would like to start a thread discussing a so-called heresy of the Catholic Church then do so. Please just one heresy at a time, though. Please don't attempt to derail this thread with such posts as this

 

[Adonia]

Yes, one conclusion. Did you search and study the full counsel of God's Word so you could come to the correct conclusion? Or did you come to your conclusion by listening to outside of scripture conjectures from men?

Yes, I searched and studied the full counsel of God's Word on this topic and I took into account everything since day one. The Apostles believed this to be true; the leaders of the newly emerging Christian Church in the early centuries believed this to be true; all of Christendom believed this to be true including our Eastern Orthodox brothers who continued believing in this truth even after the great schism in the 11th century. The fact is all Christians continued to believe this to be true until one man named Huldrych Zwingli, who in the 16th century even dissented from the "reformers", and came up with his false take on this particular issue. We are not in the wrong here, you are.