Barnabas H.
<b>Oldtimer</b>
Dr. Bob, I was under the impression that you had a Jewish background. At least that is the impression I got from other posts.... 
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Would you take them in your church?
- Thread starter SaggyWoman
- Start date
I have four grandparents:
Paternal Grandmother - Bohemian Jew
Paternal Grandfather - Drunken Irishman
Maternal Grandmother - Welsh royalty
Maternal Grandfather - Drunken Scotsman
Doesn't say too much for the choices of the women in my family tree, does it?
And feel even more sympathy for my kids - on my wife's side they are related to the Kennedy's! Talk about drunken immoral Irishmen!
Paternal Grandmother - Bohemian Jew
Paternal Grandfather - Drunken Irishman
Maternal Grandmother - Welsh royalty
Maternal Grandfather - Drunken Scotsman
Doesn't say too much for the choices of the women in my family tree, does it?
And feel even more sympathy for my kids - on my wife's side they are related to the Kennedy's! Talk about drunken immoral Irishmen!
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Dr. Bob,
I knew there was something wrong with you and now I know what it is....you're a Kennedy!!!!!
Honestly...I just don't know if I could ever allow a Kennedy in my church
I am just kidding...don't everyone get upest...ok?
Joseph
I knew there was something wrong with you and now I know what it is....you're a Kennedy!!!!!
Honestly...I just don't know if I could ever allow a Kennedy in my church
I am just kidding...don't everyone get upest...ok?
Joseph
A link to an good article http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4119.asp#f4
I think sometimes we take racism as an issue too far. People talk about someday all the world will be all mixed up, we should not see color when we look at someone, etc.
It's all good up to a point. I myself prefer to see color. I even think some segregetion is a good thing. Not forced, but there are differences in different races. I see a lot of difference in the way black Baptist churches worship, the music they prefer, Chinese churches have their own style, white churches have their own preferences. These are cultural, and should be preserved. As far as mixed races, wherever they choose to worship should not be a problem. They should be accepted anywhere.
People tend to congregate with people who have the same cultural background, and that's a good thing. All Americans should be able to express their own cultural background through their lives, and it seems to me that it is the difference in culture that is attacked at least as violently as the race itself, and nobody seems to get it.
As for me, I love to see the different colors, the differences in cultures, and the vibrancy those things can bring into our lives.
Gina
It's all good up to a point. I myself prefer to see color. I even think some segregetion is a good thing. Not forced, but there are differences in different races. I see a lot of difference in the way black Baptist churches worship, the music they prefer, Chinese churches have their own style, white churches have their own preferences. These are cultural, and should be preserved. As far as mixed races, wherever they choose to worship should not be a problem. They should be accepted anywhere.
People tend to congregate with people who have the same cultural background, and that's a good thing. All Americans should be able to express their own cultural background through their lives, and it seems to me that it is the difference in culture that is attacked at least as violently as the race itself, and nobody seems to get it.
As for me, I love to see the different colors, the differences in cultures, and the vibrancy those things can bring into our lives.
Gina
Pastor KevinR
New Member
This is very interesting as I was considering starting a topic of mixed marriages.I was raised near an army base just south of Louisville called Ft.Knox. I used to see the Black soldiers with their White girlfriends and get angry saying to myself that they should stay with their own kind! However, I woke up!Funny, after a few years, I became ordained in an IFB BLACK church in Brooklyn! And I met my wife there!I am White from Kentucky, and my wife is Black from Jamaica, West Indies! Of course my church accepts our marriage, afterall, I'm the Pastor! Can you imagine what our children will sound like, as I am from Ky, and my wife is from the Carribean? LOL! (God hasn't given us any yet )I've heard silly arguments against mixed marriages but they do not hold water as the Bible condemns mixing the Jewish faith with the pagans around them, which was race-based THEN.I can't tell you what color Moses was, but he married an Ethiopian, didn't he? Some actually use this as an argument against mixing, but this is silly. God calls Moses humble in Numbers 12, whereas his brother and sister God was displeased with.
Another note, all my family love my wife dearly, and they all live in Ky,Tn, and Ga.PTL!
However, I woke up!Funny, after a few years, I became ordained in an IFB BLACK church in Brooklyn! And I met my wife there!I am White from Kentucky, and my wife is Black from Jamaica, West Indies! Of course my church accepts our marriage, afterall, I'm the Pastor! Can you imagine what our children will sound like, as I am from Ky, and my wife is from the Carribean? LOL! (God hasn't given us any yet )I've heard silly arguments against mixed marriages but they do not hold water as the Bible condemns mixing the Jewish faith with the pagans around them, which was race-based THEN.I can't tell you what color Moses was, but he married an Ethiopian, didn't he? Some actually use this as an argument against mixing, but this is silly. God calls Moses humble in Numbers 12, whereas his brother and sister God was displeased with.Another note, all my family love my wife dearly, and they all live in Ky,Tn, and Ga.PTL!
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
Hats off to Gina for daring to express the forbidden viewpoint! I'm still waiting for the race-haters to barrage her with all sorts of false accusations.
Any mis-treatment of a person based on race is an evil thing. However that doesn't mean that we have to (or should) wipe out the beautiful races that we find in our world. I agree that there is nothing wrong with people voluntarily associating within their races...not based on any theory of superiority, simply an appreciation for one's heritage, culture, and background, and desire to preserve same.
Any mis-treatment of a person based on race is an evil thing. However that doesn't mean that we have to (or should) wipe out the beautiful races that we find in our world. I agree that there is nothing wrong with people voluntarily associating within their races...not based on any theory of superiority, simply an appreciation for one's heritage, culture, and background, and desire to preserve same.
A great current book to consider in helping Christians develop a biblical viewpoint about the human race is Ken Ham's book, "ONE BLOOD." He shows the evolutionary concept inherent in the word race as commonly used, and he opens the door for biblical Christians to come out of the closet and deal with this sin.
One black evangelist has published a gospel tract "Sin, not Skin" which puts it pretty much in the right perspective.
Needless to say we would welcome a mixed marriage couple in our church, in fact we currently have such a dating couple attending our church who recently accepted Christ and I am working with them in the opening steps of discipleship.
One black evangelist has published a gospel tract "Sin, not Skin" which puts it pretty much in the right perspective.
Needless to say we would welcome a mixed marriage couple in our church, in fact we currently have such a dating couple attending our church who recently accepted Christ and I am working with them in the opening steps of discipleship.
I live in Southern California. There's no one majority race in this area. I've never known a time in my life where there WEREN'T some mixed race couples and marriages. To date, I haven't seen any adverse effects of mixed race families in my lifetime, at least not within church congregations.
stubbornkelly
New Member
I agree that Gina makes an excellent point about trying to hard to ignore different cultures and ethnicities. I think too many people try to make a big deal out of being color blind. I think we all at least notice when someone doesn't look like us. Now, to use mistreat someone based on that difference, that's bad, but to notice? Nothing wrong with that.
I hear white people use the phrase "color blind" more than anyone else. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just my experience. But when we had a big meeting about race at my college (we had had a racially motivated attack on a student - pretty clear it was so -- they wrote "nigger" on her body in magic marker ), and the only students who used that phrase were white, and it was often preceded or followed by the inevitable statement about not being racist. It's as though their saying they were color blind proved they weren't racist, when, if anything, it seemed to indicate that they were really not all that comfortable with other races. You know, "I've got black friends . . . " and all that. But only the white students used that phrase - that I noticed. It just seems that when someone uses that phrase they're really saying "I don't notice they're not white." I don't know, maybe that's because 'white' is the default, for lack of a better word, in American culture, and there seems to be more of a focus on not noticing that non-white people aren't white than there seems to be on not noticing that white people aren't not white. Although my old college roommate went to a predominantly black high school in St. Louis, and her friends liked to laugh and say, "Kendall isn't white!"
In many ways, I think not to notice (or to claim one doesn't notice) is ignoring what many people consider to be part of their identity. I had a professor who said she wanted people to notice that she's black. She said that not to notice is to ignore part of her cultural identity and her uniqueness.
Again, to notice isn't bad, and some people even consider it good, but to use our physical differences in making judgements on a person's character, class, career, et cetera is when it becomes negative.
Phew! Back on topic, Kelly!
My home church had very few members that were not white. Probably fewer than 50 -- in a church with over 1000 members. And I don't think we ever had a married couple in which both parties were of different ethnicities. I don't think anyone would have been exluded from membership, but I just remember how strange peole thought it was when a white couple adopted a mixed race child. They didn't stay with the church too long after that. A mixed race couple may be socially excluded, but since I don't think there have been any, I can't say for sure. My home church just doesn't seem to be very welcoming to non-whites. I mean, they don't tell non-white people that they can't come in, but it's just not a very receptive community. Very few non-whites who visit actually become members. I'm sorry to say I'm not too surprised.
Now I live just outside DC, and I'm the racial minority in my neighborhood (I'm white), and my office is a fairly good mix of ethnicities. The Quaker meeting I attend is certainly open to anyone of any race, and to couples of any race and ethnicity combination. Most of the people attracted to Quakerism are white, which accounts for some of the whiteness among Friends, but this meeting is more ethnically diverse than my home church. I can't contribute that to much of anything, though, given the ethnic and racial diversity of the DC metro area, as opposed to the suburbs of Richmond.
I hear white people use the phrase "color blind" more than anyone else. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just my experience. But when we had a big meeting about race at my college (we had had a racially motivated attack on a student - pretty clear it was so -- they wrote "nigger" on her body in magic marker
), and the only students who used that phrase were white, and it was often preceded or followed by the inevitable statement about not being racist. It's as though their saying they were color blind proved they weren't racist, when, if anything, it seemed to indicate that they were really not all that comfortable with other races. You know, "I've got black friends . . . " and all that. But only the white students used that phrase - that I noticed. It just seems that when someone uses that phrase they're really saying "I don't notice they're not white." I don't know, maybe that's because 'white' is the default, for lack of a better word, in American culture, and there seems to be more of a focus on not noticing that non-white people aren't white than there seems to be on not noticing that white people aren't not white. Although my old college roommate went to a predominantly black high school in St. Louis, and her friends liked to laugh and say, "Kendall isn't white!"In many ways, I think not to notice (or to claim one doesn't notice) is ignoring what many people consider to be part of their identity. I had a professor who said she wanted people to notice that she's black. She said that not to notice is to ignore part of her cultural identity and her uniqueness.
Again, to notice isn't bad, and some people even consider it good, but to use our physical differences in making judgements on a person's character, class, career, et cetera is when it becomes negative.
Phew! Back on topic, Kelly!
My home church had very few members that were not white. Probably fewer than 50 -- in a church with over 1000 members. And I don't think we ever had a married couple in which both parties were of different ethnicities. I don't think anyone would have been exluded from membership, but I just remember how strange peole thought it was when a white couple adopted a mixed race child. They didn't stay with the church too long after that. A mixed race couple may be socially excluded, but since I don't think there have been any, I can't say for sure. My home church just doesn't seem to be very welcoming to non-whites. I mean, they don't tell non-white people that they can't come in, but it's just not a very receptive community. Very few non-whites who visit actually become members. I'm sorry to say I'm not too surprised.
Now I live just outside DC, and I'm the racial minority in my neighborhood (I'm white), and my office is a fairly good mix of ethnicities. The Quaker meeting I attend is certainly open to anyone of any race, and to couples of any race and ethnicity combination. Most of the people attracted to Quakerism are white, which accounts for some of the whiteness among Friends, but this meeting is more ethnically diverse than my home church. I can't contribute that to much of anything, though, given the ethnic and racial diversity of the DC metro area, as opposed to the suburbs of Richmond.
Until a few years ago, the Holy Spirit had not convicted me of anything in myself resembling ethnocentrism. Culturally, I was and still am uncomfortable with seeing mixed relationships, but I'm growing out of it.
Two areas that helped me most to recognize and confess my own narrowness - conversations, lectures, and sermons by Tony Evans of the Urban Alternative (especially his expertise on "The most segregated hour in America is Sunday at 11am"). The other is a book by Phillip Yancey, What's so Amazing about Grace?, which reveals the author's own move away from prejudice. Both of these sources help me to acknowledge and seek forgiveness from those I have hurt with my own self centeredness - see, I can't even blame it on ethnocentricity anymore
An earlier post is correct on a basic idea. To not discuss the subject with an urban brother or sister lets the rift continue, yet sensitivity must be used graciously for there can be hard feelings that are difficult to overcome with a brief apology or short talk. We can only hope to open doors and loosen the rust from hinges, or reopen bridges of communication that have been long disused, but only in His timing. Especially since with Him, nothing is impossible.
Praise God that just as the walls of Jericho tumbled, the Berlin wall was completely deconstructed, and one day the walls of racism, bigotry, and discrimination will be destroyed.
Two areas that helped me most to recognize and confess my own narrowness - conversations, lectures, and sermons by Tony Evans of the Urban Alternative (especially his expertise on "The most segregated hour in America is Sunday at 11am"). The other is a book by Phillip Yancey, What's so Amazing about Grace?, which reveals the author's own move away from prejudice. Both of these sources help me to acknowledge and seek forgiveness from those I have hurt with my own self centeredness - see, I can't even blame it on ethnocentricity anymore
An earlier post is correct on a basic idea. To not discuss the subject with an urban brother or sister lets the rift continue, yet sensitivity must be used graciously for there can be hard feelings that are difficult to overcome with a brief apology or short talk. We can only hope to open doors and loosen the rust from hinges, or reopen bridges of communication that have been long disused, but only in His timing. Especially since with Him, nothing is impossible.
Praise God that just as the walls of Jericho tumbled, the Berlin wall was completely deconstructed, and one day the walls of racism, bigotry, and discrimination will be destroyed.
stubbornkelly
New Member
Feel blessed that you don't have to deal with prejudice in your church, onevoice, that you can't understand why such a question would be asked, or don't know that such exclusions do happen.
Some people, right or wrong, would say that that is a reason to exclude people from a church.
Some people, right or wrong, would say that that is a reason to exclude people from a church.
I grew up in an all white town and presently live in a town with about .5% population of blacks. I dont' care what the church members think. This couple has as much right to worship as anyone else. I would accept them with open arms. If the church has a problem with it you may want to explain to them that Jesus wasn't an American. . he was (gasp) JEWISH.
My question is not why the question would be asked, but why it would be asked by a CHRISTIAN, especially a church leader. If you don't accept them, you are conforming to the worldly views of your church (see Romans 12:1-2)and letting them know that you would rather make them happy than to (1) be a witness for Christ to the couple (2) be in the will of God.
[ August 22, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: onevoice ]
My question is not why the question would be asked, but why it would be asked by a CHRISTIAN, especially a church leader. If you don't accept them, you are conforming to the worldly views of your church (see Romans 12:1-2)and letting them know that you would rather make them happy than to (1) be a witness for Christ to the couple (2) be in the will of God.
[ August 22, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: onevoice ]
Joseph --Originally posted by JBotwinick:
I wonder what Smokey might say about something like this!!!!!
Joseph
If you are speaking of SmokeEater, perhaps I
don't know him as you do, but I find this post to
be totally offensive. Yes, I am irritated, but how
could you possibly speak of another person
on this board where he may not see your post
so that he could defend himself? This clearly
stinks. If the two of you will erase your posts
before he sees them, I will erase this one as
quickly as I know.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
On another note, I live in Washington State,
and the two SDA churches in my small city
are segregated. It is well-known that they
are. It is not just the South. And there are
plenty of Christian Identity churches in
Idaho..
[ August 22, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
My husband and I are a mixed marriage. I mean really, we are in such an impossible situation. It could never work. Talk about totally incompatible cultures. This is a real doozy. Really people, it's just terrible. We were told that it just was not a wise move. We have, like 5 strikes against us!! Here they are.
1.He is actually from THE DEEP SOUTH while I am definitely born and bred a YANKEE. If that's not a recipe for trouble, I don't know what is.
2.He is OLD. He was 34 when we got married. I am YOUNG. I was almost 21 when we got married. WOW! Real trouble brewing!!
3. His dad was ENLISTED (you know---the guys who do all the work!). My dad was an OFFICER (the guys that get all the credit!) To top it off, he was enlisted too.
4.He was from a POOR family. I was from an UPPER MIDDLE class family.
5.He is TALL. I am SHORT.
I mean, really if you want to go by appearances, let's be consistent. My marriage is definitely MIXED. About the only thing we DO have in common is the color of our skin.
I hope this shows how ridiculous it seems to me to deny fellowship to someone just because of their skin color. That has to be about the lamest thing I have heard in a long time. I just couldn't help being a little humorous about it.
Really people, it's just terrible. We were told that it just was not a wise move. We have, like 5 strikes against us!! Here they are. 1.He is actually from THE DEEP SOUTH while I am definitely born and bred a YANKEE.
If that's not a recipe for trouble, I don't know what is.2.He is OLD. He was 34 when we got married. I am YOUNG. I was almost 21 when we got married. WOW! Real trouble brewing!!
3. His dad was ENLISTED (you know---the guys who do all the work!). My dad was an OFFICER (the guys that get all the credit!) To top it off, he was enlisted too.
4.He was from a POOR family. I was from an UPPER MIDDLE class family.
5.He is TALL. I am SHORT.
I mean, really if you want to go by appearances, let's be consistent. My marriage is definitely MIXED. About the only thing we DO have in common is the color of our skin.
I hope this shows how ridiculous it seems to me to deny fellowship to someone just because of their skin color.
That has to be about the lamest thing I have heard in a long time. I just couldn't help being a little humorous about it.SaggyWoman
Active Member
Interesting and valid point, SixKids.