does that make him a heretic than?
You do know that he one of the most emminent theologians, right?
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Would Your baptist Church Allow Wayne Grudem To Teach/preach There?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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does that make him a heretic than?
You do know that he one of the most emminent theologians, right?
That's the first time I've heard the term. Please educate me on the definition of when you cross the line over to become a baptacostalists. What practices exclude and include a person from this term. I'm trying to learn how at least some people use and define the term. Thanks.
I'm not allowed to give my opinion on this forum on whether I think he is a heretic.
While we would allow him to come preach, Since his views on gifts are pretty mild, your first statement is probably NOT where most churches would draw the line.
I can think of a few people who I believe to be Christians who I would not want to preach at our church. Most churches will want some level of agreement on basics, even if the person was agreeing to stay centered.
I think I found the answer to my question above on Wikipedia
Definition of Bapticostal
1. A "limited" number of people define it as:
a worship style of high-tempo Contemporary Christian music accompanied with spontaneous shouts, clapping and hand raising.
2. Most people define it as
where members profess to have and exhibit the charismatic gifts that are practiced in Pentecostalism such as speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, or being granted a word of knowledge. The prevalence of such beliefs within Baptist churches worldwide is unknown. In some unions or conventions it hardly exists (e.g. Eastern Europe) but in others (Australia, New Zealand) it is common. In the United States, it has been estimated that among Southern Baptist churches, 5% of the churches could be classified as Bapticostal, and the numbers are growing.[1] According to a study in 1989, 69% of Baptist churches belonging to the Baptist Union of New Zealand, the main Baptist association in New Zealand, identified positively with the charismatic movement.[2]
So to what degree is Wayne Grudem a Bapticostal?
or
To what degree is he "open" to the gifts of the Spirit?
I guess Wayne appears most likely to be "Undecided". He is not a pure cessationist, nor a pure Pentacostal.
Here are quotes from his book Systematic Theology
CHAPTER 51
Page 1031
Have Some Gifts Ceased? The Cessationist Debate.
...
We should also realize that there is a large "middle" group with respect to this question, a group of "mainstream evangelicals" who are neither charismatics or Pentecostals on the one hand, nor "cessationists" on the other hand, but are simply undecided, and unsure if this question can be decided from scripture.
Page 1033
b. 1 Corinthians 13:10: The Cessation of Prophecy When Christ Returns: Paul writes in verse 10, "But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. The phrase "the imperfect (G. ek merous, "partial, imperfect") refers most clearly to knowing and prophesying....
Page 1035
1 Corinthians 13:10 , therefore refers to the time of Christ's return and says that these spiritual gifts will last among believers until that time. This means that we have a clear biblical statement that Paul expected these gifts to continue through the entire church age and to function for the benefit of the church until the Lord returns.
Page 1042
God is jealous for his works and seeks glory from them for himself, , and we must continually pray not only that he would keep us from endorsing error, but also that he would keep us from opposing something that is genuinely from him.
Page 1046
Cessationists and Charismatics need each other. Finally, it can be argued that those in the charismatic and Pentecostal camps, and those in the cessationist camp (primarily Reformed and dispensational Christians) really need each other, and they would do well to appreciate each other more. The former tend to have more practical experience in the use of spiritual gifts and in vitality in worship that cessationists could benefit from, if they were willing to learn. On the other hand, Reformed and dispensationonal groups have traditionally been very strong in understanding of Christian doctrine and in deep and accurate understanding of the teachings of Scripture. Charismatic and Pentecostal groups could learn much from them if they would be willing to do so. But it certainly is not helpful to the church as a whole for both sides to think they can learn nothing from the other, or that they can gain no benefit from fellowship with each other.
CHAPTER 52
[More is described on specific gifts and how to view them. He goes on to describe how worship should be orderly, self-controlled, tongues should be interpreted, etc. It would be best to buy his book and read it.]
________________
Conclusion:
If Wayne Grudem is undecided, it seems likely that he would NOT be dogmatic about pushing for Pentacostal views, since he appears "Undecided" himself.
If you are a Baptist Church that loves pure "Cessationist Doctrine" and you want Wayne to deliver a sermon that you have chosen, and you chose the title of the sermon for him to preach on as "Why Cessationist is the only right doctrine", then you should not look to Wayne Grudem to dogmatically preach that sermon. And he would probably decline accepting your offer for such a sermon as well.
If you did not tell him what to preach on, he probably would not chose to preach on something where he is "undecided".
or
To what degree is he "open" to the gifts of the Spirit?
I guess Wayne appears most likely to be "Undecided". He is not a pure cessationist, nor a pure Pentacostal.
Here are quotes from his book Systematic Theology
CHAPTER 51
Page 1031
Have Some Gifts Ceased? The Cessationist Debate.
...
We should also realize that there is a large "middle" group with respect to this question, a group of "mainstream evangelicals" who are neither charismatics or Pentecostals on the one hand, nor "cessationists" on the other hand, but are simply undecided, and unsure if this question can be decided from scripture.
Page 1033
b. 1 Corinthians 13:10: The Cessation of Prophecy When Christ Returns: Paul writes in verse 10, "But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. The phrase "the imperfect (G. ek merous, "partial, imperfect") refers most clearly to knowing and prophesying....
Page 1035
1 Corinthians 13:10 , therefore refers to the time of Christ's return and says that these spiritual gifts will last among believers until that time. This means that we have a clear biblical statement that Paul expected these gifts to continue through the entire church age and to function for the benefit of the church until the Lord returns.
Page 1042
God is jealous for his works and seeks glory from them for himself, , and we must continually pray not only that he would keep us from endorsing error, but also that he would keep us from opposing something that is genuinely from him.
Page 1046
Cessationists and Charismatics need each other. Finally, it can be argued that those in the charismatic and Pentecostal camps, and those in the cessationist camp (primarily Reformed and dispensational Christians) really need each other, and they would do well to appreciate each other more. The former tend to have more practical experience in the use of spiritual gifts and in vitality in worship that cessationists could benefit from, if they were willing to learn. On the other hand, Reformed and dispensationonal groups have traditionally been very strong in understanding of Christian doctrine and in deep and accurate understanding of the teachings of Scripture. Charismatic and Pentecostal groups could learn much from them if they would be willing to do so. But it certainly is not helpful to the church as a whole for both sides to think they can learn nothing from the other, or that they can gain no benefit from fellowship with each other.
CHAPTER 52
[More is described on specific gifts and how to view them. He goes on to describe how worship should be orderly, self-controlled, tongues should be interpreted, etc. It would be best to buy his book and read it.]
________________
Conclusion:
If Wayne Grudem is undecided, it seems likely that he would NOT be dogmatic about pushing for Pentacostal views, since he appears "Undecided" himself.
If you are a Baptist Church that loves pure "Cessationist Doctrine" and you want Wayne to deliver a sermon that you have chosen, and you chose the title of the sermon for him to preach on as "Why Cessationist is the only right doctrine", then you should not look to Wayne Grudem to dogmatically preach that sermon. And he would probably decline accepting your offer for such a sermon as well.
If you did not tell him what to preach on, he probably would not chose to preach on something where he is "undecided".
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As am I with the exception to the sign gifts.
I am of more the Wayne grudem view in this area, NOT classical view, as believe that tongues are a gift, not all speak in them, that NO second act of Grace "baptism in HG", and that NO gifts that operate/function will be used as "revelation" from God, as the Canon ios closed, Bible final revelation from God!
ALL of that would place me outsie "normal" pentacostal, more like open to the HS doing as he wills in the assembly, but NOT to reveal doctrines/new teachings, and to always be done per Biblical practice and order!
Thank you so much for sharing this link!
I love the comment Wayne says below:
"I think we have to recognize that there is a segment of the cessationist community that is ready to pounce on anyone who speaks of subjective forms of guidance; ready to pounce on anyone who speaks of dealing with promptings of the Lord in one way or another; that is highly suspicious of any emotional component in worship or prayer. I don’t know that that is representative of all of cessationism but there is a segment of the cessationist community that is so suspicious of any emotional component, any subjective component in all of our relationship with God and with others that it tends to quench a vital aspect of the personal relationship with God in the lives of ordinary believers. And that can tend to a dry orthodoxy in the next generation that abandons that faith and the church spiritually becomes dry and static, and I’m concerned about that."
This is so true!
If someone were undecided on the trinity would you want them to preach?
Wayne Grudem does the church no favor by re-defining what the spiritual gifts were,or how they worked, or how it was up to the man to sort of filter the revelation and put it in His own words.
In a day of error....his being undecided leaves the door open to error.
In his systematic theology he has a diagram of a person who "gets " direct revelation to his mind......but then changes or interprets it as he wants to, which is not what the gifts were.
JF......any revelatory gift is revelation from God. Gifts were not like christmas tree ornaments where you decide which ones you would like ,or not like.
When you say some is ......open.......to the gifts.....they are open to error and really do not hold to the sufficency of scripture.
Sign gifts were signs of the apostles.....not a how to manual. No apostles, no sign gifts.
We have a faith that was once for all delievered to the saints jude 3
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convicted1
Guest
No. Each church should be autonomous, and I leave that to each church and they can run it the way they see fit. But if someone comes in who expouses something that that particular church is completely against, it could swat the proverbial "hornet's nest". One must be careful who they expose their sheep to.
Grudem's run the gamut (he's gone from being a minister in the Reformed Church in America, to Orthodox Presbyterian, Baptist General Conference, Southern Baptist, The Vineyard, and now attends some sort of "non-denominational" church).
There are differences from the Trinity and the sign gifts. It is a heresy to deny the Trinity. All of Church history has stood in accord of saying that no true Christian can deny the Trinity and be a Christian. A Pastor, as well, should be competent in his doctrine to defend the Trinity.
The sign gifts are different. According to J.I. Packer, a large number of the Puritans, and perhaps a majority, were not cessationists. This issue is not a new one and it has come up throughout history. It has never been treated on the same plane as the Trinity and people who have disagreed have treated the others within acceptable differences.
I would invite him into my church, a church that believes in the cessationist doctrine. In fact, I do not think any of our Elders would disagree to having him preach.
From the link above we see that Grudem currently attends a church that he describes as "open but cautious" and he is comfortable there. So rather than "Undecided" it appears Grudem might prefer some days to summarize himself as "Open but Cautious"
Personally, I agree that the gift of tongues only should be exercised if there is an interpreter, and since people speaking in tongues don't know the meaning of what they are saying themselves, and since there is no interpreter, then these gifts are not edifying and should not be considered Biblical or of the Spirit. What is actually happening when they speak in "tongues" is for another topic.
I have not studied Cessationist doctrine enough to know what belief I hold, other than I was raised Cessationist so I stick with that until I study it more and prove to myself differently.
However I like what Grudem says that Purist Cessastionists sometimes are so afraid of expressing emotions of love for the Lord, that we could learn by watching others. Not by adopting all that they do, but by watching how they express themselves freely and spontaneously. This takes risk, courage, and a big heart, which is sometimes too scary for some people.
If I told my wife on her anniversary, I love you, but I don't believe in expressing hardly any emotion to you about it, because I might lose my self-control, and we would not have order in the house, so here is a card that states the facts, nothing but the facts, no emotion, just plain words called "love",...... I would be sleeping in the garage for a week!
So I like that Grudem tries to get us off our stale old staunch stances that say NO to anything emotional.
When it comes to the other things like Tongues, I agree he should take a stronger stand dissuading people from accepting all that. Maybe he does this more in chapter 52, which I have not read completely yet. But I guess I won't agree with everything any one person says. I still like him for the good he brings to our discussions.
I like Cessationist doctrine....just dont like the guy so no, wouldn't want him in my church.:smilewinkgrin:
There are reasons like: Grudem's run the gamut (he's gone from being a minister in the Reformed Church in America, to Orthodox Presbyterian, Baptist General Conference, Southern Baptist, The Vineyard, and now attends some sort of "non-denominational" church).
There are reasons like: Grudem's run the gamut (he's gone from being a minister in the Reformed Church in America, to Orthodox Presbyterian, Baptist General Conference, Southern Baptist, The Vineyard, and now attends some sort of "non-denominational" church).
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