Wow! Trump spot on with Economics!

[Rolfe]

I could be drunk and in a comma and I'd still have more of a clue than you.

I would be careful about talking about clues while misspelling coma in the same sentence.

 

[InTheLight]

Most poor people don't get property tax refunds. Someone earning minimum wage pays upwards of 10% of their income to property taxes for a modest home and car, unless their possessions are utterly modest.

Property tax refunds are (usually) based on taxable income. Poor people do get refunds on property taxes. Buying license plates for cars is not property taxes.

(Why should poor people be have to be homeless just to avoid you claiming they don't pay taxes. If they rent, they're still paying property taxes, and their cost of living is higher than owning a house.)

Paying for rent expense is not paying property taxes. But guess what? Most states will give you a renter's credit, which reduces your taxes.

I pay $720/year to city utilities before even a penny of cost is added for utility consumption. That's a fixed expense, regardless of how much I earn or consume.

Sure you do. What does this $720 buy?

The working class pays double what you think for payroll taxes. The nominal employer's portion is still the worker's earnings. FICA and Medicare also aren't the only payroll taxes most people pay.

No, there is an employee portion and an employer portion to FICA and Medicare. The employee pays 7.65% and the employer pays 7.65%. Please tell us what these other payroll taxes are?

Then there is the 5.9% effective income tax rate..

Yes.

Minimum wage full time is about $15,000, and adding up all this comes to almost exactly a third of that. And I still haven't gotten to extra taxes they pay on such thing as phone service, gasoline, and alcohol.

No, it doesn't.

Taxes on $15,000 annual income:
$1,147 FICA/Medicare
$1,500 property taxes (using your 10% figure, but doubtful minimum wagers are homeowners)
$ 600 sales tax (assuming person spent $7,500 at an 8% sales tax rate)
$ 200 automotive license tabs
$ 144 telephone tax ($12/month)
$ 275 gasoline taxes ($.58/gallon fed. and state)
$ 100 alcohol tax (9% rate)
-------
$3,966 taxes paid, or 26.4% (and I estimated higher numbers than reality)

But, many poor people don't get $15,000/year because most employers don't give unskilled workers anything close to 40 hours/week, even if they pay them a bit above minimum wage. The percentage of their income that goes the government increases as their income goes down.

But the stipulation is that the worker is working 40 hours per week at minimum wage. That is the condition of the argument.

The largest percentage of taxes that the poor pay is the FICA/Medicare tax. That is the same percentage of income no matter how much money they make.

Just admit that you're talking nonsense. The numbers don't match up to your argument.

 

[Smyth]

Taxes on $15,000 annual income:
$1,147 FICA/Medicare
$1,500 property taxes (using your 10% figure, but doubtful minimum wagers are homeowners)
$ 600 sales tax (assuming person spent $7,500 at an 8% sales tax rate)
$ 200 automotive license tabs
$ 144 telephone tax ($12/month)
$ 275 gasoline taxes ($.58/gallon fed. and state)
$ 100 alcohol tax (9% rate)
-------
$3,966 taxes paid, or 26.4% (and I estimated higher numbers than reality)

You left off half the FICA/Medicare taxes because you think the employer really pays it, like it's some sort of charity donation. It's just the style of government paperwork. In substance, it comes out of the employee's pocket.

I count the $720 I pay to city utilities as a tax because they run a monopoly and charge that on top of any charges for actual consumption.

The largest percentage of taxes that the poor pay is the FICA/Medicare tax. That is the same percentage of income no matter how much money they make.t.

FICA tax is only on a certain amount of earned income. Any billionaire pays under a tenth of 1% of his income to FICA. Any millionaire pays under 1%. But, the poorest working person pays about 15% on each and every dollar of his income.

All taxes except the income tax are regressive. And, the income tax itself often becomes regressive as a person's income moves above the middle-class. Billionaires typically effectively pay a under 15% income tax rate, as the vast majority of their income is subject to only a 15% income tax rate, before deductions. A single man hits the 25% tax bracket at just $38,000 of taxable earned income.

 

[InTheLight]

You left off half the FICA/Medicare taxes because you think the employer really pays it, like it's some sort of charity donation. It's just the style of government paperwork. In substance, it comes out of the employee's pocket.

This is just patently wrong.

I count the $720 I pay to city utilities as a tax because they run a monopoly and charge that on top of any charges for actual consumption.

What is it for? How is it collected?

FICA tax is only on a certain amount of earned income.

Yes, this year the upper limit is $118,500. Once someone hits that number they no longer have FICA deducted from their paycheck.

But, the poorest working person pays about 15% on each and every dollar of his income.

NO. THEY. DON'T. That's a falsehood.

Billionaires typically effectively pay a under 15% income tax rate, as the vast majority of their income is subject to only a 15% income tax rate, before deductions.

Another erroneous statement.

A single man hits the 25% tax bracket at just $38,000 of taxable earned income.

For 2016 the number is $39,900. But that's just the tax bracket he's in. If you want to find out the exact percentage of taxes you actually pay look at your Form 1040 from last year. Look at the tax you actually had to pay, it's found on Line 47. Then divide that by your total income, which is found on Line 22. Way less than 25%, isn't it? Probably less than 10%.

Or, for lower income people, or people using the standard deduction, on Form 1040A it's dividing Line 39 by Line 15.

 

[Smyth]

What is it for? How is it collected?

You'll have to ask someone else what why public utility companies charge fees beyond the charges for utilities used. It's collected with the bill, and not broken out from the charges for utilities consumed. Most people have no idea.

NO. THEY. DON'T. That's a falsehood.

You're delusional if you don't think 15% isn't coming out o the employee's pocket for payroll taxes. Attributing half to the employer is just bookkeeping.

For 2016 the number is $39,900. But that's just the tax bracket he's in.

I said tax bracket. That 25% for the middle-class earner compares to the 15% tax bracket for most income that billionaires receive because it's labeled unearned.

 

[InTheLight]

You're delusional if you don't think 15% isn't coming out o the employee's pocket for payroll taxes. Attributing half to the employer is just bookkeeping.

As someone who has made FICA payments for two companies over the past 27 years, you are wrong.

I said tax bracket. That 25% for the middle-class earner compares to the 15% tax bracket for most income that billionaires receive because it's labeled unearned.

It is possible that billionaires could be taxed only 15% on income derived from, say, long term capital gains. That same opportunity to be taxed 15% on long term capital gains is available to anyone.



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[Smyth]

As someone who has made FICA payments for two companies over the past 27 years, you are wrong.

As someone with an IQ above that of a RAT, I understand the the difference between substance and style. The style is the employer pays, the substance is the employee pays all FICA taxes. The style of Trump is boorish, but in substance he has surrounded himself with a lot of good people are there's a lot of good things in his positions on the issues.

It is possible that billionaires could be taxed only 15% on income derived from, say, long term capital gains. That same opportunity to be taxed 15% on long term capital gains is available to anyone.

That's as idiotic as saying everyone has the same opportunity to live in a mansion, therefore its fair for the government to favor people who live in mansions. Most people have no opportunity for vast amounts of "unearned" income, which is taxed at a top rate of 15% with no FICA on top. The vast majority of the income of the rich is "unearned." Rich people can even structure earned income as unearned income.