Wow... watch this... incredible..

[jdlongmire]

How about just sticking with the Word of God and let Him add to the Church rather than we adding to it?

Depends on what context you mean.

Church invisible? Certainly.

Church visible?

1 Corinthians 4b Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[Alive in Christ]

JDLongmire...

"I think dance and vocal solos, or anything that focuses on the activity of an unordained individual is even more fraught than if done by an ordained minister with the peril of falling outside of being done "decently and in order" - was it decent? Kinda, maybe...

Was it in order? Not to my eyes."

How do you know? Are you saying that you think that something else was going on, maybe a message or teaching, and all of a sudden she just jumped up there, interrupted the message or teaching, and to the surprise of everyone...just took over and started dancing?

Or, do you think its more likely that this was the time of the meeting that was set aside for music and worship, and this was her contribution? (and a beautiful one at that)

"Reckon she was ordained? Not by my church."

Why would a Spirit born christian need to be "ordained" to contribute his or her gift to a worship service at the appointed time?

Has an "unordained" person ever sung a song or hymn in your fellowship? Or ever given a testimony?



:godisgood:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Why would a Spirit born christian need to be "ordained" to contribute his or her gift to a worship service at the appointed time?"
our'?

GE:
Here's the crux! How would dancing 'contribute'; but worse, how would 'his or her gift', "contribute to service (or) worship at the appointed time" - 'worship-hour'? What does your 'service' that is, Church service or 'worship-hour' consist of? Of man preaching to God or man showing God his gifts? Or God, talking to man through the hearing of the Word?

Therefore, I've seen nothing of the video; yet as I could make out from others, I have seen it all on TV, per accident. Because I won't waste my time on that type of thing were it in the concert hall or on TV. I least go to Church to watch 'gifts', concerts and 'contributions' from any. We in any case have far too much of that already from about every 'preacher' who goes onto the podium. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[jdlongmire]

JDLongmire...
How do you know? Are you saying that you think that something else was going on, maybe a message or teaching, and all of a sudden she just jumped up there, interrupted the message or teaching, and to the surprise of everyone...just took over and started dancing?

Or, do you think its more likely that this was the time of the meeting that was set aside for music and worship, and this was her contribution? (and a beautiful one at that)

How do you know she didn't? And what qualifies you to judge the appropriateness (beauty notwithstanding) of her "contribution" - the only opinion that matters is God's - is He glorified or was she?

Why would a Spirit born christian need to be "ordained" to contribute his or her gift to a worship service at the appointed time?

Because the ordained leaders are responsible to insure worship is conducted "decently and in order" and that the church is edified.

Has an "unordained" person ever sung a song or hymn in your fellowship? Or ever given a testimony?

Only under the authority of an ordained minister.

 

[Sopranette]

You can go to any thrash metal concert and see hundreds of people doing the exact same thing. Actually, I saw a number of people doing this kind of free style dancing in the movie, "Woodstock".

love,

Sopranette

 

[Alive in Christ]

JD Longmire...

"And what qualifies you to judge the appropriateness (beauty notwithstanding) of her "contribution"..."

I am no less "qualified" than anyone else. I simply thought it was beautiful and very appropriate. Its just my opinion.

"- the only opinion that matters is God's -

I have no doubt He was pleased, assuming her motives where right. And there is nothing in that video to suggest that they were'nt. She was dressed appropiately and the dancing was not erotic.

If Sandy Patty or someone sings at a Billy Graham crusade, do you question her motives?

"is He glorified or was she?"

Well, when a choir sings in a traditional church...up their in front of everyone in a prominant position, (maybe your church I dont know) do you question their motives, or ask "Was God glorified, or were they glorified?

If your answer is no, then why question one but not the other?

That fact is...in Gods beautiful wonderful Church all across this world, EVERYONE...IS..NOT...THE...SAME. There are many and various ways in which people worship God and conduct their meetings. Just because something is different than how you do it, does not necesarrily make it wrong.

Just different.


:godisgood:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Well, when a choir sings in a traditional church...up their in front of everyone in a prominant position, (maybe your church I dont know) do you question their motives, or ask "Was God glorified, or were they glorified?

:

We are charged in the New Testament, in the church, to exhort each other in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. No where is the church charged, instructed, or implied to "express your feelings is frenzied gyrations" to the Lord.

Do you have any Biblical basis to call this a kind of "worship?"

 

[Alive in Christ]

JD Longmire,

Let me just add this. (and for anyone else as well)

I fellowship at a fairly traditional evangelical church. We have never had anything like this video in question at our meetings. But, I do think that we could learn a few things from the Charismatics and Pentecostals. Not the ones who have drifted out of balance, but the ones who havent.

Sometimes I feel that we sometimes put God in "a box" so to speak. A box that is to our liking, and never challenges us or gets us out of our safe little "comfort zone"

There is a reason why God has ordained all of these multitudes upon multitudes or different expressions of worship and ways to "do church". He is an infinetly "multi-faceted" God and He knows full well that He has a tremendous diversity of personality types and "giftings" of people in His church.

I understand that there is excess and error sometimes in the charismatic and pentecostal branches of Gods church, just like there is error sometimes in the non charismatic/pentecostal evangelical branches. I agree that sometimes things are "out of order" in some meetings. But it is certainly not the norm among charismatic or pentecostal fellowships, from my experience in visiting at times when invited.

My comments on this thread are only limited to the video in question. From what I see on there, I find it beautiful and I am confident God does as well.

No less beautiful than Davids dancing unto the Lord...whirling, spinning, etc...that I brought up in a previous post.



:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

C4K,

"We are charged in the New Testament, in the church, to exhort each other in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. No where is the church charged, instructed, or implied to "express your feelings is frenzied gyrations" to the Lord."

You mean like Davids whirling and twirling as he danced for his lord? Or the dancing that has always been part of Jewish and Messianic Jewish meetings?

Psalm 150...

"1 Praise the LORD!

Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!

2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD!"

And using your logic, there is nowhere in the scriptures where we are charged, instructed, or implied to have Christmas presentations, Easter presentations, outdoor "Sunrise" services outdoors, pot lucks, dinners, etc in the House of the Lord.

Why do we do those things? God did not charge or instruct us to? Because we are FREE to. Just like we are free to worship Gid with non-erotic free form dance.

"Do you have any Biblical basis to call this a kind of "worship?"

Are we not told to Love God with everything we have? Our heart soul mind and strength? Our entire being is to be used to worship God.


:godisgood:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Are we not told to Love God with everything we have? Our heart soul mind and strength? Our entire being is to be used to worship God.

And where do you see worship in that display?

Neither you nor I know that young woman's heart. You can guess that seh was worshiping. I can guess that she was dancing for the show.

I saw nothing worshipful in her display. I saw no where that God was lifted up. I saw now where that believers edified. If she were praising the Lord, I might reconsider my view. Can you show me where in the dance she praised the Lord?

This display was a waste of time, at best.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

JD Longmire,

Let me just add this. (and for anyone else as well)

I fellowship at a fairly traditional evangelical church. We have never had anything like this video in question at our meetings. But, I do think that we could learn a few things from the Charismatics and Pentecostals. Not the ones who have drifted out of balance, but the ones who havent.

Sometimes I feel that we sometimes put God in "a box" so to speak. A box that is to our liking, and never challenges us or gets us out of our safe little "comfort zone"

There is a reason why God has ordained all of these multitudes upon multitudes or different expressions of worship and ways to "do church". He is an infinetly "multi-faceted" God and He knows full well that He has a tremendous diversity of personality types and "giftings" of people in His church.

I understand that there is excess and error sometimes in the charismatic and pentecostal branches of Gods church, just like there is error sometimes in the non charismatic/pentecostal evangelical branches. I agree that sometimes things are "out of order" in some meetings. But it is certainly not the norm among charismatic or pentecostal fellowships, from my experience in visiting at times when invited.

My comments on this thread are only limited to the video in question. From what I see on there, I find it beautiful and I am confident God does as well.

No less beautiful than Davids dancing unto the Lord...whirling, spinning, etc...that I brought up in a previous post.



:godisgood:

The Bible does not say David was whirling and spinning. Nor does it say he was dancing in a frenzied fury as this woman was to rock and roll music

 

[DHK]

I am no less "qualified" than anyone else. I simply thought it was beautiful and very appropriate. Its just my opinion.

It was entitiled "Tribal Dance." To that end it simulated the tribal dances done by the native aboriginal people around here. I have witnessed many of them, and have worked on some of their reservations. They worship a heathen god, and that seems to be who she was dancing to or imitating. It is heathenism. If she was a Christian then she was practicing a syncrestic religion. That means one thinks they can believe in their God (Jesus Christ) and still worship another idol at the same time. The Israelites did this. When they worshiped Baal, they did not leave the worship of Jehovah. They worshiped Baal along with Jehovah. Their religion was syncrestic. Thus the challenge of Elijah: If Jehovah be Jehovah then worship him. If Baal be God then worship him. How long will ye halt between two opinions.
They could not worship two gods. The Lord would not allow it then.
God will not allow it today.

I have no doubt He was pleased, assuming her motives where right. And there is nothing in that video to suggest that they were'nt. She was dressed appropiately and the dancing was not erotic.

God is not pleased with the worship of false gods. This was not the worship of Jesus Christ, or the God of the Bible, the God that we know through the Bible. There is no evidence of that. It could have been the worship of some Hindu god. But it seems more likely that, as the title indicates, it was the worship of one of the native tribal gods, such as Cree, Seminole, Cherokee, Mohawk, etc.
Imitation of heathen gods is one of the most serious sins one could do. What did Moses do to the Israelites when pretended that an image of a calf was Jehovah?

If Sandy Patty or someone sings at a Billy Graham crusade, do you question her motives?

Imitation of a person is one thing. Imitation of the worship of god is quite another!

Well, when a choir sings in a traditional church...up their in front of everyone in a prominant position, (maybe your church I dont know) do you question their motives, or ask "Was God glorified, or were they glorified?

Traditional music does glorify God. Look at the words and the people who wrote them. If you don't know the testimony behind Fanny Crosby, composer of many of our hymns, you ought to familiarize yourself with her life. The same is true with such people as Spafford who wrote "It is Well With My Soul" or with John Newton, who wrote "Amazing Grace." These hymns were written from the bottom of their hearts inspired by the sorrows and joys that God gave them. They were also theologically correct for the most part. There was no way that you could mistake their worship for anyone else but the Lord Jesus Christ.

If your answer is no, then why question one but not the other?

One is clear, worshipful, and full of praise to the Lord.
The other is ambiguous, worldly, and seems to imitate an heathen god.

That fact is...in Gods beautiful wonderful Church all across this world, EVERYONE...IS..NOT...THE...SAME. There are many and various ways in which people worship God and conduct their meetings. Just because something is different than how you do it, does not necesarrily make it wrong.

Just different.

God is not glorified in all music. Listen to what Jeremiah says:

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.

 

[jdlongmire]

I am no less "qualified" than anyone else. I simply thought it was beautiful and very appropriate. Its just my opinion.

I understand and appreciate that, but we must be careful not to let our feelings carry us away from worshiping God in a manner that pleases Him - not us.

I have no doubt He was pleased, assuming her motives where right. And there is nothing in that video to suggest that they were'nt. She was dressed appropiately and the dancing was not erotic.

I would be careful attaching my opinions as God's approval without vetting it carefully through Scripture. David danced as God's anointed one.

If Sandy Patty or someone sings at a Billy Graham crusade, do you question her motives?

Not necessarily - again - it depends on if it is sensationalism or spirit-filled and under whose authority.

Well, when a choir sings in a traditional church...up their in front of everyone in a prominant position, (maybe your church I dont know) do you question their motives, or ask "Was God glorified, or were they glorified?

see above - also, a choir does not focus on the individual.

If your answer is no, then why question one but not the other?

see above

That fact is...in Gods beautiful wonderful Church all across this world, EVERYONE...IS..NOT...THE...SAME. There are many and various ways in which people worship God and conduct their meetings. Just because something is different than how you do it, does not necesarrily make it wrong.

Just different.

I have spent time around the world and have seen and participated in many worship services that are culturally appropriate and God-honoring.

I have also seen plenty that is not - decently, in order and elder approved is my stand - not "anything goes".

 

[Alive in Christ]

Standing Firm in Christ...

"The Bible does not say David was whirling and spinning. Nor does it say he was dancing in a frenzied fury as this woman was to rock and roll music"

OK, lets see about that...

2 Samuel 6: 14-17...

"14 Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod.

15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.

16 Now as the ark of the LORD came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and whirling before the LORD;.."

Saul danced "with all his might", with "leaping and whirling" as he danced, and there was "much shouting" and the sounds of trumpets as they brought up the Ark of the Lord.

Sounds like a good ole Pentecostal meeting, doesnt it? :laugh:

Sounds almost like a rock and roll concert, doesnt it? :thumbs:

"...and she despised him in her heart."

Some things never change.

"17 So they brought the ark of the LORD, and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD."

:godisgood:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It was entitiled "Tribal Dance." To that end it simulated the tribal dances done by the native aboriginal people around here. I have witnessed many of them, and have worked on some of their reservations. They worship a heathen god, and that seems to be who she was dancing to or imitating. It is heathenism. If she was a Christian then she was practicing a syncrestic religion. That means one thinks they can believe in their God (Jesus Christ) and still worship another idol at the same time. The Israelites did this. When they worshiped Baal, they did not leave the worship of Jehovah. They worshiped Baal along with Jehovah. Their religion was syncrestic. Thus the challenge of Elijah: If Jehovah be Jehovah then worship him. If Baal be God then worship him. How long will ye halt between two opinions.
They could not worship two gods. The Lord would not allow it then.
God will not allow it today.

God is not pleased with the worship of false gods. This was not the worship of Jesus Christ, or the God of the Bible, the God that we know through the Bible. There is no evidence of that. It could have been the worship of some Hindu god. But it seems more likely that, as the title indicates, it was the worship of one of the native tribal gods, such as Cree, Seminole, Cherokee, Mohawk, etc.
Imitation of heathen gods is one of the most serious sins one could do. What did Moses do to the Israelites when pretended that an image of a calf was Jehovah?

Imitation of a person is one thing. Imitation of the worship of god is quite another!

Traditional music does glorify God. Look at the words and the people who wrote them. If you don't know the testimony behind Fanny Crosby, composer of many of our hymns, you ought to familiarize yourself with her life. The same is true with such people as Spafford who wrote "It is Well With My Soul" or with John Newton, who wrote "Amazing Grace." These hymns were written from the bottom of their hearts inspired by the sorrows and joys that God gave them. They were also theologically correct for the most part. There was no way that you could mistake their worship for anyone else but the Lord Jesus Christ.

One is clear, worshipful, and full of praise to the Lord.
The other is ambiguous, worldly, and seems to imitate an heathen god.

God is not glorified in all music. Listen to what Jeremiah says:

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen.

GE
Thank you, DHK. It is soul-encouraging to feel and believe in harmony with a fellow-Christian. It feels even, so free and restful! Why have anxieties over all these very old modern pretentions? Just away with them, and worship Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace. He makes it so easy and so simple; yet men would have it demanding and unsetling!

 

[Alive in Christ]

JD Longmire...

After the questionong of the motives of the woman dancing for her Lord, I posted...

"If Sandy Patty or someone sings at a Billy Graham crusade, do you question her motives?"

And you responded...

"Not necessarily - again - it depends on if it is sensationalism or spirit-filled and under whose authority."

"Under whose authority"??? A person has to be under another persons "authority" to sing a song, or for that song to have Gods annointing and blessing upon it???? :tonofbricks:



Goodness gracious, between this thread and the one about who baptizes you, we are getting a proverbial "crash course" in "Churchianity"...which some seem to want to be involved with rather than Christianity.

(Not questionaing anyone salvation, of course. I assume everyone here to be born again)

:godisgood:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Standing Firm in Christ...



OK, lets see about that...

2 Samuel 6: 14-17...



Saul danced "with all his might", with "leaping and whirling" as he danced, and there was "much shouting" and the sounds of trumpets as they brought up the Ark of the Lord.

Sounds like a good ole Pentecostal meeting, doesnt it? :laugh:

Sounds almost like a rock and roll concert, doesnt it? :thumbs:



Some things never change.






:godisgood:

You are adding to the text saying he was leaping and whirling. Scripture does not say that. You are adding your own theories that he was leaping and whirling.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

2 Samuel 6:14-16 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Whirling is not even found in that passage. As a matter of fact, it is not in the entire Bible.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Goodness gracious, between this thread and the one about who baptizes you, we are getting a proverbial "crash course" in "Churchianity"...which some seem to want to be involved with rather than Christianity.

Simple request. When I hear Christian music God is glorified because His name is proclaimed. The same with preaching. The same, I suppose, with some drama.

Simply show me where Christ is exalted before man in this dance.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Standing Firm in Christ,

"Whirling is not even found in that passage. As a matter of fact, it is not in the entire Bible."

:tonofbricks:


Standing...what more do I have to do? I am "copy and pasting" it straight from the scriptures!!!

Seriously, are you even bothering to read my posts? Gods word has been posted more than once.

Here it is one more time.

Quoted directly...FROM...THE...SCRIPTURES.....

2 Samuel, 6:16...

"Now as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and SAW KING DAVID LEAPING AND WHIRLING before the Lord."

Now can you SEE it???

That comes straight out of the New King James version of the scriptures. I'll go ahead and assume that you have another version that does not say "whirling"

Fine.

You do realize dont you that ALL of the translations mention shouting unto the Lord, and all of the translations mention dancing unto the Lord, and all of the translations mention leaping unto the Lord.

So...what you are advocating then is that its perfectly OK to SHOUT unto the Lord during worship, and perfectly OK to DANCE unto the Lord during worship, and perfectly OK to LEAP unto the Lord during worship....but you better not *revolve* in any way as you shout, dance, and leap...because your translation doesnt include the word "whirl"?????

Have I got it right now?





:godisgood: