Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c

[Allan]

I find it interesting that Jesus declares No one can come to Him unless the FATHER DRAWS THEM.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then Jesus states, He (Jesus) will draw all men.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

The first (Father) we find (in context) to whom God was constantly and consistently reaching out to, this was His people the Jewish nation. (Israel is know in the OT as Gods wife) And it was to the Jews that Jesus was speaking and in context regarding them.

The second (Jesus) is in reference to whom Jesus was reaching out to as the culmination of Gods plan toward man. Jesus came to allow the beginning of the outreach to those not of Abramhams decent. This does not happen until the complete denial of Him from the Jewish nation in general through His death. >>>EDITED<<<

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd

And we know that this group is called the Bride of Christ - we aren't married yet. :love2:

Yet we find two different persons of the Godhead calling differing groups for the same purpose of making one people. We must distiquish between the two drawings for their purpose are both different and yet similar

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[Allan]

Brother Bob,

Clarify please. Are you saying we are already married or that we are in the betrothal stage (as though you are married though without full benifits)

And only awaiting to be married (full consumation of marriage and full benifits) where we are presented to Christ as His bride, and the wedding feast begins.

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe the marriage has begun and will end at the coming of Christ. I think it began at the death of the Law Covenant and the beginning of the Grace. I believe as God adds to the church such as should be saved they become a part of the Bride but the complete Bride will be at the Coming of the Bridegroom. (The complete ceremonial will be when the Bride is complete).

Rev:22
17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Blammo]

ok...and? it seems you are saying the jews were asked by God to GUT to others outside the nation Sharing the faith. Am I reading you right?

Please show me a verse so that we can talk about it.

No, you are not reading me right. How hard are you trying? I am not saying that God sent the Jews out to preach the word to every creature, but, my point is, neither were they told to keep it to themselves.


1 Kings 8:41-43 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm; when he shall come and pray toward this house; Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

 

[Allan]

No, you are not reading me right. How hard are you trying? I am not saying that God sent the Jews out to preach the word to every creature, but, my point is, neither were they told to keep it to themselves.


1 Kings 8:41-43 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm; when he shall come and pray toward this house; Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

Well put. There are many other verses of scripture that refer to Israel being a witness to all others of God and His love toward those who seek Him (kinda like christians are to the world as well)

 

[Jarthur001]

Well put. There are many other verses of scripture that refer to Israel being a witness to all others of God and His love toward those who seek Him (kinda like christians are to the world as well)

Indeed

No one will say God does not love. In fact all will say this.

Take Nineveh....

2Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah was told to GO TELL Nineveh of Gods love. But what some do not see, is two things.

1) This is election by God. This was Gods idea, not Jonahs

2) The city was wicked. How many died before Jonah came?


The last verse in the book tells us how many people lived in the city.

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons.

If my math is right, there was more then 120,000 people that lived in the city. In my small town of 65,000 we have around 20 people listed in the paper that die each day. Even in the short time that jonah ran from God, some people died never hearing. How many years did they go before someone came?

Now then...it needs to be asked...did God show more grace on the Jews then Nineveh?

Again God does show His love to many...

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.

Notice "forever". How long?????? forever. Do you think the Bible means this...or is just joking with us.

As it turns out, you can not take pride in your salvation. God choose to show you grace. In this verse the LORD hath indignation on them(people)...FOREVER!!!!


Now should we believe this...or do we need to change the Bible?


In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

Jonah was told to GO TELL Nineveh of Gods love. But what some do not see, is two things.

1) This is election by God. This was Gods idea, not Jonahs

2) The city was wicked. How many died before Jonah came?

1. So you believe the 120,000 became believing Jew(s) according to religious observences. You do state they were elected. If so We find God does bring judgement on Niniva and completely destroys the city at a later point. I do agree it was God that desired this people not be destroyed since God loves mankind but does allow sin to be rampent up to a point. We find this with the promise of Abraham that He could not go into the Promise land until the inhaditants sinfulness has come to completion. It is odd that God is waiting to bring in His elected due to the fact the inhabitance was not yet at the height of their sin. Now yes, this is speculation but I can surmise from this that God was allowing any who will to turn.
2. It was the same as the exact number of tombs :laugh:
Everyone who did not learn from the example of Isreal and repented. They were major tormentors of the Jews and one of the main reasons Jonah did not want any saved.

How many years did they go before someone came?

How many years were they privy to the teachings and knowledge of the Jewish traditions and Powerfull God? The one sent was their last shot.

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.

You will have a major time trying to use the Hate issue with regard to Jacob and Esau. Now if you are stating the reason there was indignation against Edon because God hated Esau, I will deal with that quite easily. Yes or no?

Now are you are stating that historically up to this point Edom has constantly with stood Israel and help in the attacks on her and God judgement per His promise was a manditory curse of destruction (those who bless you I will bless, and those who curse you I will curse.) Note: It does not equate the same to Ninivah since Ninvah never attacked or abused Israel as a Nation.

Of Course His destruction/curse would be forever since it was a people who the Lord allowed a large time period in which to repent by they maintained a rebellous attitude against God and His people. Thus - bye`bye!

I say beleive it, just not through tinted glasses, but plain reading of the text and concenses of commentators/pastors/scholars. But most importantly in context. :thumbs:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

1. So you believe the 120,000 became believing Jew(s) according to religious observences. You do state they were elected.

Not really. I said that when God CHOOSE to send Jonah that this choosing was election. One must still believe. No?

I do agree it was God that desired this people not be destroyed since God loves mankind but does allow sin to be rampent up to a point.

Deut. 32

8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Isa 53

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

We find this with the promise of Abraham that He could not go into the Promise land until the inhaditants sinfulness has come to completion. It is odd that God is waiting to bring in His elected due to the fact the inhabitance was not yet at the height of their sin. Now yes, this is speculation but I can surmise from this that God was allowing any who will to turn.

Then you surmise wrongly. Tis God that is in control.

Oh yes, God will allow all to come if they are willing. "If" be the key word. God indeed calls all. Man understands not, or will not listen to God. God is also patient.

But..in the Context...

"Wait upon the Lord"

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

"Be still and know that I am God"

"Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."

"In the morning, O LORD, you hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before you and wait in expectation"

"Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him"

"I wait for you, O LORD; you will answer, O Lord my God."

"wait for your God always. "

"Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. "

Everyone who did not learn from the example of Isreal and repented. They were major tormentors of the Jews and one of the main reasons Jonah did not want any saved.

In other words, are you saying that because they tormented the Jews they had not the blessing of God before Jonah came? This needs to be addressed, but in the end the ponit still remains, they were not given Gods Word before Jonah came...and many died in their sins never hearing of the true God. No?

How many years were they privy to the teachings and knowledge of the Jewish traditions and Powerfull God? The one sent was their last shot.

How many indeeed? Show me from the Bible where God worked with this nation in sharing the Law and the prophets or sent someone before Jonah.

You will have a major time trying to use the Hate issue with regard to Jacob and Esau. Now if you are stating the reason there was indignation against Edon because God hated Esau, I will deal with that quite easily. Yes or no?

I will go with the Bible. Hate Esau it says. agree?

Now are you are stating that historically up to this point Edom has constantly with stood Israel and help in the attacks on her and God judgement per His promise was a manditory curse of destruction (those who bless you I will bless, and those who curse you I will curse.)

In other words Paul was lieing to us in Romans 9? Paul tells us there it is not about good and evil. How can you override Paul?

Of Course His destruction/curse would be forever since it was a people who the Lord allowed a large time period in which to repent by they maintained a rebellous attitude against God and His people. Thus - bye`bye!

I say beleive it, just not through tinted glasses, but plain reading of the text and concenses of commentators/pastors/scholars. But most importantly in context. :thumbs:

Context indeed. You have fallen for a misleading rewrite of the Bible often given by the freewillers. Yet...what does the context say? Not the words of fluff. Context is King is my line.



In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

Not really. I said that when God CHOOSE to send Jonah that this choosing was election. One must still believe. No?

So even in election one must beleive? I know that I would say one must beleive, I just didn't think I would hear you say it. :laugh: Maybe there is hope? raying: :laugh:

Deut. 32
8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. But I would ask concerning Jacob being His lot of His inheritance... does this mean that everyone before Jacob was dammed since it was Jacob and his 12 children whom the the Lord chose. You could maybe make an arguement that Abramham and Issac could be post-inheretence but everyone else before would have to be dammed in this logic since NONE of them were chosen and therefore elected.

Is 53
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This and the preceeding passage must be taken in Context. Yes only many will have the attoning work applied or appropreated However we find this same attonement is offered to ALL since it was made for ALL, (but as we know, will not be recieved by all) we find in the previous verse

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That ALL have gone astray (mankind) turning each to our own way (but not unto God, The Way) AND (in addition to what was stated) He has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL (mankind).

It is the same symbolism that we find in the OT attonement - the Priest would apply a small portion of the blood to the horns of the alter (and or the Mercy Seat) and the rest of the attoning blood (larger portion) was to be poured out at the base of the alter and trampled under foot. Symbolizing that though the all the nation was attoned for not all the nation would recieve the attonement and would/will serve idols ect...

So the atoneing work was completed for all but was and will only be applied to many. Thus this is portion that will be His.

Then you surmise wrongly. Tis God that is in control.

Oh yes, God will allow all to come if they are willing. "If" be the key word. God indeed calls all. Man understands not, or will not listen to God. God is also patient.

But..in the Context...

"Wait upon the Lord"

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

"Be still and know that I am God"

"Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."

"In the morning, O LORD, you hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before you and wait in expectation"

"Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him"

"I wait for you, O LORD; you will answer, O Lord my God."

"wait for your God always. "

"Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. "

Of course God is in control, no one (specifically me) ever said He was any thing less than in control. I just don't believe God made puppets.

Your veiw of God calling men but knowing men CAN NOT come... makes God call not only insincere (not honestly calling) put Gods entire charactor on the line. God calls all men the same, if you want to dispute this (since we both beleive God calls) show me scripture that states effectual calling is biblical and not interjected to help maintain a view. I know some words we use are not in the bible but the explict phrases that show without doubt are there. Just show me where God distinguishes between to types of calling, one that some will not obey and one that they must obey.

The rest of the verse you put down are concerning those who have already submitted themselves to God and therefore each verse in context is one of a believer in relation to God.

In other words Paul was lieing to us in Romans 9? Paul tells us there it is not about good and evil. How can you override Paul?

Of coures I can not over ride Pual any more than you can. But it is not a question of over riding Paul as to are you accurate in your assement and rendering of of Rom 9? How would I explain your VIEW. Simple, you misunderstand what Paul is stating. If you hold to the stringent view, this is speaking of God choosing salvation of specific people before they were ever born and having ever done right or wrong then you must in context and interpretive consistency maintain that God also ordained/choice those who were not to be save to be dammed before they ever have done right OR WRONG (ie Adam). This veiw (double predestinationism) is also in the Calvinistic circles considered in the least a heresy and denied. Therefore in light of this, it can not be the type of sovereignty you (regarding calvinism) apply to it. I do believe it is refering to Gods soveriegnty without question, I just hold it to be God Soveriegnty to act within the natural relm with either mercy or judgment as He sees fit concerning His foreknowledge and promises yet fulfilled. There is to much to go into now but maybe at a different time

You have fallen for a misleading rewrite of the Bible often given by the freewillers. Yet...what does the context say? Not the words of fluff. Context is King is my line.

Actually, there is no rewrite of the bible as what I see is only a differing >>>EDITED<<< opinion from another varying OPINION called Calvinism. I agree Calvinistic thought has been apart of Christianity for as long as the other but niether had any specification until the 1600's.

Finally, IF Calvinism (most specifically 1-4, 5 is really semantics as I see it) is the absolute truth as Calvinists claim, why then has it not be established as absolute truths like the deity of Christ, Trinity, Virgin birth, Death, Burial, and Resurection, One God, One Savior, ect... These are established truths and maintained doctrine by ANY who claim the name of Jesus Christ and are true believers according to scripture. They are debatable truths and therefore can not be established and why we are still debating them today as then. Any view can be take to far and any conversation can be brought to the subjection of any view, but Let US allow our conversation to make Christ our objective and not views. Continue to sharpen each other, yes (I love these conversations) but Keep CHrist in our forefront that we may glory in Him. - Amen?

With much love in Christ
Allan

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

So even in election one must beleive? I know that I would say one must beleive, I just didn't think I would hear you say it. Maybe there is hope?

This is a common misunderstanding of Calvinisim. Election is unto salvation thus salvation follows.

I'm skipping some of your post to be address in a post of its own.

Your veiw of God calling men but knowing men CAN NOT come... makes God call not only insincere (not honestly calling) put Gods entire charactor on the line. God calls all men the same, if you want to dispute this (since we both beleive God calls) show me scripture that states effectual calling is biblical and not interjected to help maintain a view. I know some words we use are not in the bible but the explict phrases that show without doubt are there. Just show me where God distinguishes between to types of calling, one that some will not obey and one that they must obey.

Now lets look at the facts. If we find this anywhere in the nature of God, would you then agree that God can do it in other ways? The choice is up to you.

Matthew 5:48
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"
Are you perfect? Is anyone that you know perfect?

1 Corinthians 15:34
"Awake to righteousness and sin not"
Do you sin? Do you know anyone that does not sin?

1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not"

Is anyone capable in himself of complying? Are these not demands of God?



In Christ...James

 

[Salamander]

Hello Salamander


No, it means God is not a repector of persons, for salvation is not by man. God saves whomever He wises based on His good pleasure. Or that is what the Bible says.

Hmm, "Salvation is of the Jews". Many Jews die and go to hell. Israel will be saved in a day. Israel mine elect. Jacob is NEVER called "elect". It is His good pleasure that men repent unto salvation and are saved by grace through faith. For God hath given every man the measure of faith. God is just that JUST!

Election is not about being just.

If you're trying to separate an action of the Just God as if that action is not just, you just pitted God against His Just Self.

Romans 9

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Don't confuse mercy with grace The Red Sea crossing is a type of salvation. God had mercy on all who would trust His guiding them to Canaan. God hardened all the hearts of them who chose to be in unbelief and they murmured against Moses and Aaron. God hardened the heart of Pharoah, ONLY after Pharoah first hardened his own heart.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

All those proclaiming their own righteousness

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

That "form" is the physical body, not the spiritual.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. God made the vessels. Those vessels were given the same measure of faith, BUT, they were either led by the Spirit and became a vessel of honour, or they were led by the flesh and became a vessel of dishonour. Those of dishonour still had the chance to be made new. God endures all those vessels of dishonour, (of which we all were, but don't have to be), then after reaching the point of reprobation, (something that God also does to those who knew Him as God but don't recognize Him as God), they become vessels of wrath that God WILL pour His wrath upon.

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Right! That mercy of God that allows that same conforming to the express image of God's dear Son. Those His grace sought and by faith they believed unto salvation through that same measure given every man.

?? please tell what you mean


Why would you say this?


In Christ..James

I told you what the passage means, though not exhaustively. I say this because that is what the Bible says, in context, and not according to Calvin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

Hmm, "Salvation is of the Jews". Many Jews die and go to hell. Israel will be saved in a day. Israel mine elect. Jacob is NEVER called "elect". It is His good pleasure that men repent unto salvation and are saved by grace through faith. For God hath given every man the measure of faith. God is just that JUST!

No I think the word used by the Bible is not elect but choosen. BTW..Choosen means elect..like when we elect or choose someone for public office. Where we go rewriting the Bible again. Unlike your claims the Bible says God elects for His pleasure. Change your own Bible and I'll keep mine the way it is. If God be ONLY JUST as you claim, we would all go to hell.

If you're trying to separate an action of the Just God as if that action is not just, you just pitted God against His Just Self.

Not I. I post the Bible. What book did you get this idea from?

Don't confuse mercy with grace The Red Sea crossing is a type of salvation. God had mercy on all who would trust His guiding them to Canaan. God hardened all the hearts of them who chose to be in unbelief and they murmured against Moses and Aaron. God hardened the heart of Pharoah, ONLY after Pharoah first hardened his own heart.

Rewrite.

The Bible says other wise.

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

Exodus 7

1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

5And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

That "form" is the physical body, not the spiritual.

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. God made the vessels. Those vessels were given the same measure of faith, BUT, they were either led by the Spirit and became a vessel of honour, or they were led by the flesh and became a vessel of dishonour. Those of dishonour still had the chance to be made new. God endures all those vessels of dishonour, (of which we all were, but don't have to be), then after reaching the point of reprobation, (something that God also does to those who knew Him as God but don't recognize Him as God), they become vessels of wrath that God WILL pour His wrath upon.

REWRITE Major. Why do you fell God needs your help? Do you feel He left to much out, and now its up to you to finish? This is POOR.

I told you what the passage means, though not exhaustively. I say this because that is what the Bible says, in context, and not according to Calvin.

I know you told me what YOU think it means. I happen to believe God, and not you. Your idea of context is clear. Change the wording till it says what you want. That my friend is not context. This is called rewrite. BTW..what did calvin say on this? My guess is you have no idea.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

I would like to slow down a bit for we are at a turning point. I want to look at context in detail. Passage Isaiah 53

I know you did not like it when I claimed you do not look at context. I do not claim this in all passages, yet many I will stand behind my statement. You have looked at a word one word and feel it is a overlook by my system. Now we must look at each word I would agree. But you have let your one word drive your understand. You are looking for ways to prove your side and you fail to see the full context. Context is King...over one word and over one verse.

Before we go any more into this, lets look at your word.
"ALL"

It is found in verses like this...

"6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

As well as others verses in this passage.
Why do you think this word changes anything? I say it is because you are looking for a way to paint God as you see God and not as the Bible shows Him. I understand that these are strong words, but I am willing to back them up.

1st while looking at ALL you have over looked the word US and WE. Who is US and who is WE? The context tells us.

That is it for now...


In Christ..James

 

[Allan]

I know you did not like it when I claimed you do not look at context. I do not claim this in all passages, yet many I will stand behind my statement

What I did not like was your uneditted post making accusation that I was intentionally redefining word and taking your scriptures out of context. After your editting I simply said to you accusation of not seeing the real context... prove it. And untill otherwise I stand behind the contextual analysis given.

"6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
...
Why do you think this word changes anything? I say it is because you are looking for a way to paint God as you see God and not as the Bible shows Him. I understand that these are strong words, but I am willing to back them up.

1st while looking at ALL you have over looked the word US and WE. Who is US and who is WE? The context tells us.

I say the opposite, you can't see what I'm saying because you have already painted it and don't want to see anything other than you have placed there.
I state this chapter gives a picture of Christs attonement (1.) suffently made for all (2.) Effeciently applied to many - those who wanted it applied.

I did not over look the WE and US. With regard to your question of whom is this speaking. Specifically, the Jews as we find the same correlation in Ezk 34 concerning sheep going astray, each to their own way and the Shepard going out to seek and save His sheep (Israel). Now, I DO NOT hold to replacement theology(which I consider borderline heresy but not there yet). However we do understand this also is an implication transending just the Jews (prophetic in nature) and we know the gospel went to the gentiles as well (Jesus other fold). So the implication JUST as it is for the Jews Attonement is applicable in principle and practive for the FINAL Attoning work Christ.

We can get into more detail here but for now maybe you get what I am saying. The problem here is that both of us beleive in atonement and that not everyone shall have that attoning work applied. We differ on extent of atonement and why it is applied.

 

[Jarthur001]

What I did not like was your uneditted post making accusation that I was intentionally redefining word and taking your scriptures out of context. After your editting I simply said to you accusation of not seeing the real context... prove it. And untill otherwise I stand behind the contextual analysis given.


I say the opposite, you can't see what I'm saying because you have already painted it and don't want to see anything other than you have placed there.
I state this chapter gives a picture of Christs attonement (1.) suffently made for all (2.) Effeciently applied to many - those who wanted it applied.

I did not over look the WE and US. With regard to your question of whom is this speaking. Specifically, the Jews as we find the same correlation in Ezk 34 concerning sheep going astray, each to their own way and the Shepard going out to seek and save His sheep (Israel). Now, I DO NOT hold to replacement theology(which I consider borderline heresy but not there yet). However we do understand this also is an implication transending just the Jews (prophetic in nature) and we know the gospel went to the gentiles as well (Jesus other fold). So the implication JUST as it is for the Jews Attonement is applicable in principle and practive for the FINAL Attoning work Christ.

We can get into more detail here but for now maybe you get what I am saying. The problem here is that both of us beleive in atonement and that not everyone shall have that attoning work applied. We differ on extent of atonement and why it is applied.

Just wanted to pop in and let you know i'll get to this tonight.

Hang in there....

There other LOOOONg one which I will take the blaim for...I will try to address.

But this one is key..i feel.


Later..


in Christ...James

 

[Revmitchell]

All of scripture was written to believers. Much of it applies to unbelievers as well.

The real issue isnt what particular acts result in salvation. That has nothing to do with it. The credit for salvation isnt based on an act. It is based on who has the authority and power to give it.

John1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Receive first salvation second. God gets the credit regardless of any response from us for he alone has the power to save. There is only power in our response "if" God chooses to provide it. But our response is necessary as indicated in scripture.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

In order to stay on track a review is needed from time to time. The thread has been based on discussing if…”does God give more grace to some then He does others”. After talking about other verses we are now looking at Isa. 53: 12

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgress.

* I am guilty of posting the verse.

* Allan objected that the word “all” found in many places of the same chapter was not considered, and if done shows the real picture and would put my proof verse in context.

* I replied that to much attention was being paid to one word, …the word he liked the most. <<----(Tis my claims, and Allan disagrees)
I went on to say that this caused Allan to overlook other key words that set the context. I thought it would be best to considered two other words along with his word “all”…that being “us and we”..when we look at this passage.

And this be his reply….

I say the opposite, you can't see what I'm saying because you have already painted it and don't want to see anything other than you have placed there.

That is a possible conclusion, we shall see if it be true.

I state this chapter gives a picture of Christs attonement (1.) suffently made for all (2.) Effeciently applied to many - those who wanted it applied.

To 1…Why do you call this a picture? and..What makes you think this is atonement? Does it have anything to do with the words "baring our sins"?
To 2…Speaking of a picture, do you find the atonement applied in the OT or just given to ALL? While you think along this lines, here is a passage for you to view..

14
He is to take some of the bull's blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.
15
"He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it.
16
In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

You see I do not object to the word “all”, I understand its meaning. It does mean all…all of US. Or We ALL. It does not mean only to those it is applied....and you will not find this picture in the OT. US ALL is the context.

I did not over look the WE and US.

Then you will agree that all is the whole of the nation. ALL of US. Yet…no other nation. Do you now agree?

With regard to your question of whom is this speaking. Specifically, the Jews as we find the same correlation in Ezk 34 concerning sheep going astray, each to their own way and the Shepard going out to seek and save His sheep (Israel).

Yes and the elect are the Good Shepherd’s sheep in the age of grace.

The Good Shepherd: "For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day... I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick... Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God" (verses 11, 12, 15, 16, 23, 30, 31).

Then Christ says..
John 10 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
I'm sure you know that the unsaved are NOT sheep...right?

Which is much like a verse in our text..

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Allan goes on and says..

So the implication JUST as it is for the Jews Attonement is applicable in principle and practive for the FINAL Attoning work Christ.

Do you? The atonement was only for His people and it was for ALL of His people. Do you believe this?

We can get into more detail here but for now maybe you get what I am saying. The problem here is that both of us beleive in atonement and that not everyone shall have that attoning work applied. We differ on extent of atonement and why it is applied.

I look forward to it. But 1st I would like to show you the way I see this passage in full detail. We have only hit on a few things and there is much more to see. I'm not sure I can fit it into one post.

Thanks for the good exchange....


In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

In order to stay on track a review is needed from time to time. The thread has been based on discussing if…”does God give more grace to some then He does others”. After talking about other verses we are now looking at Isa. 53: 12

Quote:
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgress.


* I am guilty of posting the verse.

* Allan objected that the word “all” found in many places of the same chapter was not considered, and if done shows the real picture and would put my proof verse in context.

* I replied that to much attention was being paid to one word, …the word he liked the most. <<----(Tis my claims, and Allan disagrees)
I went on to say that this caused Allan to overlook other key words that set the context. I thought it would be best to considered two other words along with his word “all”…that being “us and we”..when we look at this passage.

Uh...Wait a minute!
First: You are guilty of the verse but I will stand by you and we can both be sentenced together as we both are now guilty :laugh:

Second: You got the rest completely wrong. I did not object because of the word "all" was not considered. I objected because the VERSE was overlooked that maintained the context of the showing All and Many in relation to the attoning work of the Cross. All being attoned for but Many being the ones it was applied to (concerning the Jews specific and the world prophetic).

You stated:

Is 53
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

I state:

This and the preceeding passage must be taken in Context. Yes only many will have the attoning work applied or appropreated However we find this same attonement is offered to ALL since it was made for ALL, (but as we know, will not be recieved by all) we find in the previous verse
I Quote:
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
That ALL have gone astray (mankind) turning each to our own way (but not unto God, The Way) AND (in addition to what was stated) He has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL (mankind).

It is the same symbolism that we find in the OT attonement - the Priest would apply a small portion of the attoning blood to the horns of the alter (and or the Mercy Seat) and the rest of the attoning blood (larger portion) was to be poured out at the base of the alter and trampled under foot. Symbolizing that though the all the nation was attoned for not all the nation would recieve the attonement and would/will serve idols ect...

So the atoneing work was completed for all but was and will only be applied to many. Thus this is portion that will be His.

As you can see there is little attention give to the word "all" you insinuate, but to the context of the chapter as a whole. This was not about word play but context.

To 1…Why do you call this a picture? and..What makes you think this is atonement? Does it have anything to do with the words "baring our sins"?

Ok, I'll be the first to admit it - bad wording. :tear: It is not a picture, per say, but a prophet view toward the attoning work of the Cross. Of course it is about attonement, Come on Jarthur!

To 2…Speaking of a picture, do you find the atonement applied in the OT or just given to ALL? While you think along this lines, here is a passage for you to view..

I will restate what I wrote previously. ADDED: Lev 4:7,18 concerning Sin Attonement.
It is the same symbolism that we find in the OT attonement - the Priest would apply a small portion of the attoning blood to the horns of the alter (and or the Mercy Seat) and the rest of the attoning blood (larger portion) was to be poured out at the base of the alter and trampled under foot. Symbolizing that though the all the nation was attoned for not all the nation would recieve the attonement and would/will serve idols ect...
NT Example verse
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Do you really beleive that Christ or the Sin Attonement (offering) was for the whole nation of Israel, even thoughs who worshipped idols and rejected God?
Another quick point
Do you think that when it speaks of this attonement it was ONLY for the Jewish bloodline? IF so then what do we do with the non-jews who where worshippers of God like Tamar, Rahab, Ruth as examples but there are many others.

THere was only one nation UNTO God, if anyone wanted to serve this God they would have to leave their nation and come under this Nation of the ONE Ture God.
We find in the OT many that were Half Jewish or non-Jewish that worshiped God. Are you trying to state there was no atoment for them who were not of Isreal (bloodline)?

... The atonement was only for His people and it was for ALL of His people. Do you believe this?

Yes and No. Yes to all but (no) not applied to all as shown above with idoliters ect...Yes, they were His people mostly from Jewish decent (no) but also from other Nations. What does this have to do with anything?

There is the promise given to the blood line with faith
and another promise similar for and to those of faith and not of the blood line. The attonement is for ALL but covers BELEIVERS (as symbolized in the OT)

 

[Allan]

To early to see my writings

Almost forgot a piece sorry

Yes and the elect are the Good Shepherd’s sheep in the age of grace.
Quote:
The Good Shepherd: "For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day... I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick... Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God" (verses 11, 12, 15, 16, 23, 30, 31).

Then Christ says..
John 10 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
I'm sure you know that the unsaved are NOT sheep...right?

Yes I know this, but...the Ez Passage is a reference ONLY concerning Israel in this instance as it refers to God scattering them in judgement, and even states the House of Israel.
Then when Jesus used it, He too spoke concerning the House of Israel but states within same context and with continued continuity that there are others not of this fold. Now some questions need to be asked:
1) Was this sheep (OT) concerning Israel by Bloodline (Jacob covenent) only or Isreal (concerning Abrahams promise) ?
2) Was Jesus refering to a specific second group of sheep distinguishable from the first, when He states He must go get sheep that are not of this fold?

Lastly they are His sheep, His own. However, the issue is still are they those whom God has given grace to and not others. or:
Is it those whom God knows will come at His gracious call though He knows many will reject that grace offered. The Group (sheep) are still His but the difference is as this thread subscribes, is this grace limited and not truly offered to all?
No it is not - is my statement.