Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c

[Blammo]

I have a question:

It has been denied by calvinists that God's choosing of individuals is arbitrary. If it is not arbitrary, what is the criteria? Why does God elect someone? Don't tell me what is not the criteria, I have heard that before, and I happen to agree with you. So, what is the criteria?

 

[webdog]

I'm not going to quibble with you on this anymore. You're simply wrong.

I guess you win, then

 

[Andy T.]

I have a question:

It has been denied by calvinists that God's choosing of individuals is arbitrary. If it is not arbitrary, what is the criteria? Why does God elect someone? Don't tell me what is not the criteria, I have heard that before, and I happen to agree with you. So, what is the criteria?

This question cannot be answered any easier than a non-C has to answer why God created the world when He knew that doing so would mean many people ending up in hell. The simple answer is: We don't know. You've probably heard that God's choosing is not arbitrary in that His choosing is not by chance like drawing out of a hat. Everything that God does is purposeful and is never done out of chance (i.e., arbitrary). But the bottom line is, we don't know what all of His purposes are. Maybe we will when we get to heaven. Even then, we may not know, because there will always be a Creator-creature distinction to where some things are beyond our comprehension.

Hope that helps.

 

[webdog]

This question cannot be answered any easier than a non-C has to answer why God created the world when He knew that doing so would mean many people ending up in hell. The simple answer is: We don't know.

...but we do. "Believe...you will be saved".

 

[Blammo]

This question cannot be answered any easier than a non-C has to answer why God created the world when He knew that doing so would mean many people ending up in hell. The simple answer is: We don't know. You've probably heard that God's choosing is not arbitrary in that His choosing is not by chance like drawing out of a hat. Everything that God does is purposeful and is never done out of chance (i.e., arbitrary). But the bottom line is, we don't know what all of His purposes are. Maybe we will when we get to heaven. Even then, we may not know, because there will always be a Creator-creature distinction to where some things are beyond our comprehension.

Hope that helps.

It doesn't help. But, I appreciate your honesty. I don't know either.

Maybe these verses will shed a little light on it?:

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Andy T.]

...but we do. "Believe...you will be saved".

No, I think you would have to admit that you do not know why God chose to create people whom He knew would reject Him, thus consigning them to everlasting damnation. And claiming "free will" or "choice" isn't an answer, because it does not deal with the question of God's purposes in allowing people to end up in hell. IOW, what was God's purpose in valuing free will over seeing people burn in hell? Any non-C who claims to know the answer to that question is fooling himself.

And of course, all Christians rightly believe that whosoever believes on Christ will be saved.

 

[webdog]

The answer is "love". God desires that we love Him and worhip Him genuinely...something that can only be done voluntarily.

 

[Andy T.]

The answer is "love". God desires that we love Him and worhip Him genuinely...something that can only be done voluntarily.

But why create people whom He knows will not love Him, thus consigning them to hell?

 

[webdog]

But why create people whom He knows will not love Him, thus consigning them to hell?

...because justice has to be done regardless of love. If my son kills someone and I know about it, the just thing for me to do is turn him in to the authorities to pay for his crime...even if it means capital punishment. Will I love him any less? No way!

God is love...and God is Holy, righteous and just. God still loves those who reject Him, and even weeps over their rejection of Him (Matthew 26:37).

 

[Andy T.]

...because justice has to be done regardless of love. If my son kills someone and I know about it, the just thing for me to do is turn him in to the authorities to pay for his crime...even if it means capital punishment. Will I love him any less? No way!

God is love...and God is Holy, righteous and just. God still loves those who reject Him, and even weeps over their rejection of Him (Matthew 26:37).

You're not answering the question. Why did God choose to create people who would reject Him, knowing they would go to hell? He could have chosen not to create them. Why didn't He?

 

[Blammo]

You're not answering the question. Why did God choose to create people who would reject Him, knowing they would go to hell? He could have chosen not to create them. Why didn't He?

I think we, with our finite minds, are trying to understand something that only God, who is infinite, can.

If we had the ability to create beings that were able to think, reason, and make decisions on their own, would we know what they were going to do before we created them? Would we not have to see what they do, before we know it? Because we created them, we may know what they would be inclined to do. We may influence them to do what we desire, but, unless they were robots, they would still do whatever seemed right to them. That is the best I can do with my finite mind.

 

[Andy T.]

I think we, with our finite minds, are trying to understand something that only God, who is infinite, can.

Exactly my point way back in post #143. So whether you believe in Unconditional Election or Conditional Election, there always remain unanswered questions as to the hidden purposes of God.

 

[Blammo]

Exactly my point way back in post #143. So whether you believe in Unconditional Election or Conditional Election, there always remain unanswered questions as to the hidden purposes of God.

Yep. That is why I am trying real hard not to pretend to know the things I don't.

 

[npetreley]

I have a question:

It has been denied by calvinists that God's choosing of individuals is arbitrary. If it is not arbitrary, what is the criteria? Why does God elect someone? Don't tell me what is not the criteria, I have heard that before, and I happen to agree with you. So, what is the criteria?

God never even gives us a clue other than "those He foreknew (as in knew intimately)". Since that doesn't really tell us anything close to what I think you're asking, I don't see how we could even speculate.

 

[Brother Bob]

You're not answering the question. Why did God choose to create people who would reject Him, knowing they would go to hell? He could have chosen not to create them. Why didn't He?

God created them all the same. There was not any created for hell. According to Calvinist God recreated some after the creation. He regenerated their heart so they were a different creature than what he first created, when He created all alike.
Man fell of His own choice. God created man subject to vanity but man didn't have to sin, he chose to sin and hence the fall. Jesus died for all but man had to choose Him and "believe" in Him to be saved. According to Calvinist you take away this ability of man to choose and give him a new creation with a different heart a "regenerate" heart that would believe in God and be saved. We say that after the fall that is why Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world so all men could choose and believe and then their hearts were changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, therefore it was man who chose good or evil and not God who recreated some so they chose good.

Calvinist believe in a "recreation" of some men so they would choose good, and they call it "regenerate".
It is not that this "elect" would believe in God and therefore be saved. It was according to Calvinist, a change made in the creation itself. The heart that man was created with was completely changed to a different heart and would no longer be like the creation but with a "regenerate heart" that couldn't do anything else but believe in God.

 

[Andy T.]

Bob, nice diatribe against Calvinism, but you still didn't answer the question. Just admit that you don't know. Come on into the boat - it's crowded because we're all in it together.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, nice diatribe against Calvinism, but you still didn't answer the question. Just admit that you don't know. Come on into the boat - it's crowded because we're all in it together.

To answer that question is to say God chose to create man subject to vanity so as to get "glory" out of those who chose Him. He could have created a robot but that was not His purpose. His purpose in creating man in the beginning was to give Him a choice to either choose Him or choose evil and those that did of their own free will choose God, He receives Glory from that. He created man to give Him glory and honor but created Him where man could refuse to do what he was created for. (that is my take on it Andy)

 

[Andy T.]

To answer that question is to say God chose to create man subject to vanity so as to get "glory" out of those who chose Him. He could have created a robot but that was not His purpose. His purpose in creating man in the beginning was to give Him a choice to either choose Him or choose evil and those that did of their own free will choose God, He receives Glory from that. He created man to give Him glory and honor but created Him where man could refuse to do what he was created for. (that is my take on it Andy)

Bob, you and Webdog keep answering the "how" not the "why". I'm asking the "why". I answered the "why" to Blammo's question way back in post #141 (my response in #143). I pointed out that answering the "why" is something we all have to answer. You keep answering that God gave us free will, etc. Free will, in your view, is the mechanism that God gives us to be saved. That's fine, I've seen your defense of free will many times before. But that only answers the "how". You still must deal with "why" God chose to create people that beforehand He knew would spend eternity in hell. Why did he do that, when He could have chosen not to create at all? God doesn't need us. He didn't need to create us. So why did He do it knowing that many people would suffer for eternity? You don't know. Don't feel bad, I don't either.

 

[Brother Bob]

If I knew why God created man as He did then I would know the mind of God and no man knows the mind of God nor has any man been His councelor.

For some reason, God had this thing about creating something He would call "man" that would have a heart, mind and soul that could choose to obey Him or disobey Him.

Why did God do that? I summit, I don't know. I just am too feeble to know the mind of God.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

God created them all the same. There was not any created for hell. According to Calvinist God recreated some after the creation. He regenerated their heart so they were a different creature than what he first created, when He created all alike.
Man fell of His own choice. God created man subject to vanity but man didn't have to sin, he chose to sin and hence the fall. Jesus died for all but man had to choose Him and "believe" in Him to be saved. According to Calvinist you take away this ability of man to choose and give him a new creation with a different heart a "regenerate" heart that would believe in God and be saved. We say that after the fall that is why Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world so all men could choose and believe and then their hearts were changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, therefore it was man who chose good or evil and not God who recreated some so they chose good.

Calvinist believe in a "recreation" of some men so they would choose good, and they call it "regenerate".
It is not that this "elect" would believe in God and therefore be saved. It was according to Calvinist, a change made in the creation itself. The heart that man was created with was completely changed to a different heart and would no longer be like the creation but with a "regenerate heart" that couldn't do anything else but believe in God.

Well Brother Bob I believe you fully understand both sides of it. I don't think any one can convince you ( man that is) Its hard or it was for me but I got more comfort putting it in God hands than in mans. I said it like this I do not want what I want I really want whats of the Lord and that is against my own feelings on it alot. I believe no one can teach you, you understand all the points. It was probably 4 years ago or so that I understood that some believe man believes of him self and that some believe that man believes by the working of Gods power. ( them right in the Old Regulars) I was so torn on this. This is probably one time in trying to understand scriptures that I cried out, not just prayed to the Lord on it. Am I 100% sure, not on anything. I always say I am 90% sure. I am always looking for other Scripture to give me something more. ......BJS