Yeshua, the history of the infant Church shows the son of Jona/ Peter had full consciousness of being "pastor" (shepherd) not only of the lambs but also of the sheep - of all Christ's flock; in fact, immediately after the Ascension, Peter acted as the supreme head of the Church. It was Peter who proposed in the Cenacle that a substitute be named to take the place of Judas Iscariot in the Apostolic College; it was Peter who was the first to preach on Pentecost; it was Peter who received the first pagans into the bosom of the Church at Cornelius' home, although St. Paul is par excellence the missionary of the Gentiles; it was Peter who questioned and reproved the couple guilty of lying; it was Peter who, like a president, was the first to speak at the Council of Jerusalem.
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Wsa Paul Just as much an Apostle asa either peter/John?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Same Peter was NOT the one to head of the Mother church, as that was James, and he along with james/John were seen as being EQUAL pillers in that church...
Also, same peter NEVER claimed to bethe chief Apostle, but just one of them..
And again, Paul wrote much more, much greater revelations from the lord unto us, and even peter saw him as his co equal among the Gentiles, so did the church have co popes, peter and paul then?
Jesus clearly appointed Peter to feed His flock. Jesus only ever ask Peter three times , not just once, three times, so that people as you would some day read the Bible and see where Jesus ask or commanded Peter 3 times, that is Three Times to feed His sheep Yeshua, do you understand ? Jesus commanded His Apostle Peter three times to make sure that Peter takes care of His sheep. Do you yet understand ?
You seem to miss the fact that Jesus asked him that 3 times in a row, as he denoed jesus 3 times, and peter was to feed his sheep, but so are ALL of the Apostles, and the pastors and teachers today!
Did He then ask paul to feed his gentile sheep?
You just cannot answer from the bible ONLY where peter was declared Pope in earliest church, as they had him, Paul/John ALL on equal standing regarding inspiration and authority!
And the first baptist church of jerusalem had James equal to him in authority also!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul said the Holy Spirit made him an Apostle to gentiles just as HE had made Peter and John Apostles to the Jews.
Gal 2
6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
What the CATHOLIC Paul would have to have said in Gal 2 is
"God showed personal favoritism to Peter which I gladly acknowledge making Peter the shepherd over both Jews and Gentile and over all other Apostles. I gladly serve him and he gave me authority to minister to gentiles just as he gave John the commission to go to the Jews".
Sadly for the model the RCC uses - that is not at all in Gal 2. Rather the opposite. Peter shares his role with John -- -and Paul takes the role of leading Gentiles.
Only James in Acts 15 - appears to lead them all.
in Christ,
Bob
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Acts15: Great point BobRyan. [emoji122]
It is James who renders judgment.
Peter was told 3 times because he denied Christ 3 times. The instructions are applicable for all the Apostles. They all feed the sheep. Not just Peter. Plus Peter himself said he was a fellow shepherd(elder), with the other overseers. Christ is the Chief shepherd. He doesn't say has the "Elder of Elders" or anything like it.
1Peter 5*So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
St. Peter’s Place of Primacy Among the Twelve
Sts. Peter, James, and John are a special group of disciples that are allowed to witness the Transfiguration2 and accompany Christ to the Mount of Olives.3 In each event, St. Peter, the Rock, is singled out. At the Mount of Olives, Christ finds all three asleep, but it is St. Peter he addresses. During the Transfiguration, it is St. Peter who speaks for the disciples. In St. Luke 5:1-11, Christ calls his first disciples, and the first is Simon Peter. According to Cardinal Ratzinger, the “call of Peter appears as the original pattern of apostolic vocation par excellence.”4 Every time the disciples are listed, St. Peter is listed first.5 Furthermore, when referring to the disciples, sometimes only St. Peter is mentioned by name, e.g., “And Simon and those who were with him,” and “Now Peter and those who were with him”.6 St. Peter is the only one to try to walk on the water (Mt 14:28ff) and he is the one that brings up the famous question of how many times we must forgive.7 Even St. Peter’s shadow was an instrument of healing.8
Significance of the Name Change
While it was common for Rabbis to give nicknames or new surnames to their disciples, e.g., the Sons of Zebedee as the “Sons of Thunder,” it was uncommon to change a disciple’s first name. Christ gives Simon the new name “Peter” or Kephas (or Cephas) meaning rock.9 In the Old Testament, God changing someone’s name denoted a special calling, a new vocation, e.g., Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, etc. St. Peter’s name change denotes that he will have a special vocation among the twelve. Obviously Christ was also referred to as the Rock, because he is the foundation of all things. However, in the rabbinical tradition, Abraham was also referred to as a rock: “Look to the rock from which you were hewn… look to Abraham your father” .10 Cardinal Ratzinger comments:11
Abraham, the father of faith, is by his faith the rock that holds back chaos, the onrushing primordial flood of destruction, and thus sustains creation. Simon, the first to confess Jesus as the Christ and the first witness of the Resurrection, now becomes by virtue of his Abrahamic faith, which is renewed in Christ, the rock that stands against the impure tide of unbelief and its destruction of man.
The Papal Office Given to St. Peter by Christ
After the Resurrection, Christ appears to the Twelve and has a unique conversation with St. Peter. Christ, the Shepherd, asks St. Peter three times if he loves him. St. Peter responds yes all three times – presumably this passage should reflect his three denials. Christ also tell St. Peter and Peter alone: feed my lambs, tend my sheep, and feed my sheep. As the Vicar of Christ, St. Peter must care for the flock.12 In Lk 22:31-34, two major Petrine themes are evident. First, Satan has taken a special interest in St. Peter. He will fail, but will repent. Second, after St. Peter has “turned again” to Christ, Jesus commissions him to “strengthen the brethren.” Another mission given only to St. Peter.
In Matthew 16:13-20, the most famous unique call is given to St. Peter: to be the foundation of the Church and to exercise the authority of keys of the kingdom. The office given to St. Peter is that of the Vicar within the Davidic Kingdom. The Vicar governs in the King’s stead, according to the King’s rules, while the King is gone.13 St. Peter is the Vicar of Christ, the Pope.
Sts. Peter, James, and John are a special group of disciples that are allowed to witness the Transfiguration2 and accompany Christ to the Mount of Olives.3 In each event, St. Peter, the Rock, is singled out. At the Mount of Olives, Christ finds all three asleep, but it is St. Peter he addresses. During the Transfiguration, it is St. Peter who speaks for the disciples. In St. Luke 5:1-11, Christ calls his first disciples, and the first is Simon Peter. According to Cardinal Ratzinger, the “call of Peter appears as the original pattern of apostolic vocation par excellence.”4 Every time the disciples are listed, St. Peter is listed first.5 Furthermore, when referring to the disciples, sometimes only St. Peter is mentioned by name, e.g., “And Simon and those who were with him,” and “Now Peter and those who were with him”.6 St. Peter is the only one to try to walk on the water (Mt 14:28ff) and he is the one that brings up the famous question of how many times we must forgive.7 Even St. Peter’s shadow was an instrument of healing.8
Significance of the Name Change
While it was common for Rabbis to give nicknames or new surnames to their disciples, e.g., the Sons of Zebedee as the “Sons of Thunder,” it was uncommon to change a disciple’s first name. Christ gives Simon the new name “Peter” or Kephas (or Cephas) meaning rock.9 In the Old Testament, God changing someone’s name denoted a special calling, a new vocation, e.g., Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, etc. St. Peter’s name change denotes that he will have a special vocation among the twelve. Obviously Christ was also referred to as the Rock, because he is the foundation of all things. However, in the rabbinical tradition, Abraham was also referred to as a rock: “Look to the rock from which you were hewn… look to Abraham your father” .10 Cardinal Ratzinger comments:11
Abraham, the father of faith, is by his faith the rock that holds back chaos, the onrushing primordial flood of destruction, and thus sustains creation. Simon, the first to confess Jesus as the Christ and the first witness of the Resurrection, now becomes by virtue of his Abrahamic faith, which is renewed in Christ, the rock that stands against the impure tide of unbelief and its destruction of man.
The Papal Office Given to St. Peter by Christ
After the Resurrection, Christ appears to the Twelve and has a unique conversation with St. Peter. Christ, the Shepherd, asks St. Peter three times if he loves him. St. Peter responds yes all three times – presumably this passage should reflect his three denials. Christ also tell St. Peter and Peter alone: feed my lambs, tend my sheep, and feed my sheep. As the Vicar of Christ, St. Peter must care for the flock.12 In Lk 22:31-34, two major Petrine themes are evident. First, Satan has taken a special interest in St. Peter. He will fail, but will repent. Second, after St. Peter has “turned again” to Christ, Jesus commissions him to “strengthen the brethren.” Another mission given only to St. Peter.
In Matthew 16:13-20, the most famous unique call is given to St. Peter: to be the foundation of the Church and to exercise the authority of keys of the kingdom. The office given to St. Peter is that of the Vicar within the Davidic Kingdom. The Vicar governs in the King’s stead, according to the King’s rules, while the King is gone.13 St. Peter is the Vicar of Christ, the Pope.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God is God over all - but you "infer" that Christ gave Peter the authority over "all" instead of just "the lambs" of the Jews -- the new believers at a time when Christ had them going to just the Jews.
What you add by "inference" Paul removes entirely in Gal 2 - telling us without a doubt how the division of labor and assignment was at the time he was alive. Shall we take your inference and supposition over the explicit statement of the first century apostle writing in Gal 2??
I think you know that answer.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan, regarding Galatians, this passage has nothing to do with Peter leading people astray. Paul opposed Peter because he was separating himself from the Gentiles during meals. Why was this a big deal? Because Peter was the one who infallibly taught that the Gentiles were equal members of the New Covenant. Peter was the one who made this monumental decision as we read in the book of Acts. Paul was criticizing Peter's conduct, not his teaching authority. Everyone would have looked naturally to Peter and his conduct since he was the leader. God specifically reveals this in Scripture to teach us that there is a difference between a pope's private conduct and opinions and his official teaching authority.
I believe Peter's conduct can be viewed as legitimate. Peter had a mission to the Jews, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was therefore very concerned about how the Gentiles were evangelized. Paul viewed Peter's conduct as a possible scandal to the Gentile's evangelization. However, Peter had his own reasons. In the book of Acts, we read that the Jews were angry that Peter was dining with Gentiles. They could not understand this, since they always viewed themselves as having a preferential position with God. Peter was trying to pacify them for the moment by trying to make the best out of a difficult situation.
Paul probably should have known this. Paul did the very same thing, and Peter could have just as easily called Paul a hypocrite. Paul engaged in the Jewish purification ritual, and also had Timothy circumcised, even though Paul perennially taught that we were now free from the law of Moses. Why did he do this? For pastoral reasons. He was reaching out to the Jews, while trying to evangelize the Gentiles. Peter did the same thing.
I believe Peter's conduct can be viewed as legitimate. Peter had a mission to the Jews, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was therefore very concerned about how the Gentiles were evangelized. Paul viewed Peter's conduct as a possible scandal to the Gentile's evangelization. However, Peter had his own reasons. In the book of Acts, we read that the Jews were angry that Peter was dining with Gentiles. They could not understand this, since they always viewed themselves as having a preferential position with God. Peter was trying to pacify them for the moment by trying to make the best out of a difficult situation.
Paul probably should have known this. Paul did the very same thing, and Peter could have just as easily called Paul a hypocrite. Paul engaged in the Jewish purification ritual, and also had Timothy circumcised, even though Paul perennially taught that we were now free from the law of Moses. Why did he do this? For pastoral reasons. He was reaching out to the Jews, while trying to evangelize the Gentiles. Peter did the same thing.
The problem with your catholic tinted views regarding peter is that paul indeed did "let him have it", and peter did not rebuke paul, for he knew that he was wrong , and that Paul had same authority from God as an Apostle as he did!
Aga!n, there is NO biblical or historical evidence that peter was seen as being the chief apostle in early church, as they seemed to see all Apostles has having same authority to teach and proclaim doctrines and practices
Can you quote what passage peter himself declared to us that he was first and primary among all Apostles? I cannot find it in my version, maybe its in the RCC one?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
By "add by inference" i simply mean that you are "reading it into the text" -- but Paul is not reading anything - he is simply reporting what is actually going on in the division of labor and responsibility in the church leadership.
I was not talking about the dispute in Gal 2. I was simply talking about Paul reporting on the division of labor in the churchl.
Gal 2
6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Agreed that is also another incident listed in Gal 2 - but I was just talking about Paul reporting on his own Apostleship and how he was commissioned to gentiles just as Peter had been commissioned to go to Jews.
Do you consider the Pope as the Apostle to the Jews and some other church leader as the Apostle to the rest of the Catholic world??
The text says 'certain men came from James" it does not say "Certain men were Jews".
There were Jews in Galtia already and some where Christian Jews - but these men "came from James" they were Jews from Jerusalem - Christians - men part of the top hierarchy - associated with James himself who was presiding over all the church for in Acts 15 James said "It is my decision that..." and all the council followed his rule.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan,regardless of which interpretation we give to Galatians chapter 2 we have to accept that the text does not allow us believe that Paul corrected a false teaching of the Apostle Peter. Therefore this passage cannot be used to justify dissent from the successor of Saint Peter, the Holy Father, the Pope.
Paul was rightfully rebuking peter to caving in to the pressure of the Judaizers, as he started to treat gentiles as being inferior to the jews in new Covenant!
And again, NO evidence in either the Bible or history that peter either claimed or was seen as being first pope, as that was just invented by RCC in order to support their heretical teachings as being truth!
Yeshua, then who do you think was the first Pope? And who did he succeed from? And remember who ever you think was first Pope had to have been ordained by a former Priest { Jesus, Bishop, Pope ] and before you start raving, Jesus was a Priest [ Heb 2: 17 }. Once you select who was First Pope show me his ordination by a former clergy.
Yeshua, I explain about the situation concerning St. Paul and St. Peter. Peter was the chief-apostle as according to Jesus and the Holy Bible.
Yeshua, I explain about the situation concerning St. Paul and St. Peter. Peter was the chief-apostle as according to Jesus and the Holy Bible.
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except that same peter afforded paul to have SAME inspiration and authority as he did, just among the gentiles!
And there was NO pope in the true church of christ, so?
Yeshua, so tell me ,which is the true church of Christ ? If Jesus only hand-picked His Apostles and told them to go out into the whole world and ,,,, Matt. 28: 18-20 along with Luke 10 ; 16 Matt. 16: 15-19, 2nd. Peter 3: 10,2nd. Peter 3: 16, John 20: 21, John 21: 15-17 , John 17: 21, Now after reading those passages and verses I hope you don't think that your going to convince me that Jesus formed His Church on one of your 16th to 21st century Protestant church inventors.