Ye must be born again 2

[steaver]

I already gave my view once, no need again, you rejected it then. Feel free to search for it though.

Nothing is going to change, Believing is a Work according to scripture !

THen according to your pov SBM, Paul is confused when he says...

But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

This you have not explained and it does NOT coincide with your works explanantion. You are the one that must deal with Paul's statement and explain what Paul really means by "worketh NOT, but believeth".

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

THen according to your pov SBM, Paul is confused when he says...

But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

No Paul is not confused, Paul is correct. Paul did not write that believing was not a work ! Believing is a work, it is something man does with his mind !

 

[DHK]

I already gave my view once, no need again, you rejected it then. Feel free to search for it though.

Nothing is going to change, Believing is a Work according to scripture !

No you haven't explained it at all. In denial of this verse, and contrary to all evidence you simply assert over and over again that faith is not a work. I have proven to you that is not true. I can provide all the evidence in the world that is not true. But you will not accept the evidence. That is evident right here in this verse. You reject it. You throw it out of your Bible.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

A verse that plainly says that faith is not a work. You simply deny the Word of God at this point and ignore the Word of God, and assert your own ideas and your own philosophy above the authority of God's Word.

This is where the admonishment of Paul comes in:
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

You have been admonished many times. Your teaching is to be rejected.
The Bible clearly states that faith is not a work, and you have nothing but denial to say for this. What other conclusion can one come to but the above?

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

No you haven't explained it at all.

Yes I have and you rejected it, so I will not explain it again here, this is about the New Birth. Now, I have showed that believing is a work, and nothing you have provided denies that. Rom 4:4-5 does not deny that.

You have not provided one scripture that states Faith or Believing is not a work. Faith and Believing are acts of obedience, something man does !

 

[DHK]

dhk



Yes I have and you rejected it, so I will not explain it again here, this is about the New Birth. Now, I have showed that believing is a work, and nothing you have provided denies that. Rom 4:4-5 does not deny that.

You have not provided one scripture that states Faith or Believing is not a work. Faith and Believing are acts of obedience, something man does !

The new birth is not even mentioned in that passage. It is about justification.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Again faith is defined as those that work not. And those that work not (defined as faith) are justified.
The same definition is given in a concluding verse in chapter 5 and verse 1.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith, not of works. Faith is not a work.

Eph.2:8,9 says the same thing.
Salvation is by grace through faith; not of works. Faith is not a work.
--How many Scriptures are you going to deny?

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

The new birth is not even mentioned in that passage.

This thread is about the New Birth. I have extensively made comments on Justification in other threada I have began, and you have opposed every last one of them, and comments have been made on Rom 4 !

 

[DHK]

dhk



This thread is about the New Birth. I have extensively made comments on Justification in other threada I have began, and you have opposed every last one of them, and comments have been made on Rom 4 !

The thread may be entitled new birth. But Rom.4:4,5 have nothing to do with the new birth, per se, but everything to do with justification. Justification is the topic of those verses, as the context definitely shows.

 

[steaver]

No Paul is not confused, Paul is correct. Paul did not write that believing was not a work ! Believing is a work, it is something man does with his mind !

Somehow you believe in your mind that if you just keep saying that believing is a work then that somehow will make it true!

I say explain Paul's contrast between works and faith, and you just keep repeating the same old line, which does nothing but opposes Paul and is not an explanantion!

If you could only step back and see the silliness of your responses.

Trying to help you stop looking foolish brother. It isn't a good look for anyone.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

Somehow you believe in your mind that if you just keep saying that believing is a work then that somehow will make it true!

The word work is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is Believing an act ? Yes, is it a deed ? Yes, is it a thing done ? Yes. Is it something accomplished by the mind ? Yes !

 

[DHK]

steaver



The word work is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is Believing an act ? Yes, is it a deed ? Yes, is it a thing done ? Yes. Is it something accomplished by the mind ? Yes !

No, this is the definition given: (from Strong's)

εργον ergon er'-gon

from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.

Faith is an intangible. It does not fit into this definition.

 

[savedbymercy]

No, this is the definition given: (from Strong's)

Faith is an intangible. It does not fit into this definition.

Believing is the same as Faith, Faith is the Noun form, Believing is the verb form. In Eph 2:8 The word faith is pistis and means:

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

c) the religious beliefs of Christians

d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness

a) the character of one who can be relied on

The word is used in 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

pistis is from the root word the verb peithō which means:


persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

One obeys the Truth, that is Faith

Gal 3:1

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Faith is a obedience resulting from persuasion Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The obedience OF Faith Rom 16:26

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Believing the Gospel is same as obeying the Gospel Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

You can deny it all you want, Faith, Believing is man doing something, obedience.

If you are saved because of your obedience, thats works ! And it contradicts Rom 5:19 which says:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Elect are made Righteous solely by the Obedience of One, Christ ! You add to that your obedience, its a false gospel ! And Faith or believing is man's obedience !

 

[steaver]

Believing is the same as Faith, Faith is the Noun form, Believing is the verb form. In Eph 2:8 The word faith is pistis and means:

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

c) the religious beliefs of Christians

d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness

a) the character of one who can be relied on

The word is used in 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

pistis is from the root word the verb peithō which means:


persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

One obeys the Truth, that is Faith

Gal 3:1

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Faith is a obedience resulting from persuasion Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The obedience OF Faith Rom 16:26

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Believing the Gospel is same as obeying the Gospel Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

You can deny it all you want, Faith, Believing is man doing something, obedience.

If you are saved because of your obedience, thats works ! And it contradicts Rom 5:19 which says:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Elect are made Righteous solely by the Obedience of One, Christ ! You add to that your obedience, its a false gospel ! And Faith or believing is man's obedience !

You keep saying we add something. Paul said works and believing are opposites. Paul said "ye are saved by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS", agian Paul shows the contrast between works and believing, they are DIFFERENT.

YOur argument really is with Paul and you have refused to deal with Paul's argument. You just keep repeating the same old line without substance.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

You keep saying we add something.

I am witnessing to scripture that by definition believing is a work of the mind. You state that you are saved because you believed. That plainly stating you are saved by simething you done. Thats works. You deny salvation by Grace through Faith. Grace and Works cannot mix Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[The Biblicist]

Believing is the same as Faith, Faith is the Noun form, Believing is the verb form. In Eph 2:8 The word faith is pistis and means:
!

Do your homework more thoroughly. The same term is used in contexts to mean "faithfulness" which is obedience in "good works" but in gospel contexts it always refers to the heart simply receiving not doing (Rom. 4:5).

However, since you refuse to recognize these two different contextual applications of the same Greek word you end up pitting scriptures against scriptures and teach your false doctrine that conversion faith is a work!

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Do your homework more thoroughly.

God has well equipped me !

The same term is used in contexts to mean "faithfulness

I already know that !

The noun faith can be translated faith or faithfulness. Thats not the point of this thread, neith does it nullify the fact that believing is a work. Thats what I mean when I said a while back, you just like to show off with the greek, to hear yourself talk so to be speak ! That comment was not even relevant !

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



God has well equipped me !



I already know that !

The noun faith can be translated faith or faithfulness. Thats not the point of this thread, neith does it nullify the fact that believing is a work. Thats what I mean when I said a while back, you just like to show off with the greek, to hear yourself talk so to be speak ! That comment was not even relevant !

You do nothing in merely RECEIVING a gift. Receiving is the PASSIVE side of faith which is the work of being created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:8-9) that is "not of works. The ACTIVE side of faith in response to having been created in Christ Jesus is FAITHFULNESS or "good works" (Eph. 2:10).

Epheisans 2:8-9 is not the same as Ephesians 2:10. Regenerative faith is PASSIVE in Ephesians 2:8-9 without works while SANTIFICATION FAITH is ACTIVE consequence of having been created in Christ Jesus or FAITHFULNESS "unto good works" in Epheisans 2:10.

You are confusing them and explicitly denying Ephesians 2:8-9 in regard to regenerative "through faith" work of God!

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

You do nothing in merely RECEIVING a gift.

No, The Gift is New Life, that is what the Elect receive as a Gift James 1:17-18

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above[Born from above], and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

However, that New Creation believes, whic is a work, an action done, a deed.

James 1:25

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The ACTIVE side of faith in response to having been created in Christ Jesus is FAITHFULNESS or "good works" (Eph. 2:10).

It's Faith which issues into Faithfulness, for the Just shall live by his Faith ! That is, from the point of time of conversion when they believe, they shall never draw back, but remain faithful !

 

[The Biblicist]

bib


!

God does not give an unbelieving and spiritually dead new heart! The heart he gives is a believing living heart! That is what being "created in Christ Jesus" in Ephesians 2:10a is all about and the description of Ephesians 2:8-9 which is "not of works."

 

[savedbymercy]

Jn 3:3-5

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

After New Birth, a Birth into the Spiritual Kingdom of God, Being born of the Spirit,now in possession of Spiritual Life, which now means in possession of Spiritual Eyes, Ears, and Heart to understand Spiritually. It is now the Elect are in a condition to do spiritually the commands of God and His Kingdom, to Repent, to Believe the Gospel, to see the Son and Believe on Him Jn 6:40

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, the seeing and Believing are Spiritual !

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

God does not give an unbelieving and spiritually dead new heart

God gives the unbelieving and Spiritually dead elect a new Life they had in Christ. Christ's Resuurection from the Dead begets them again 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats when the elect are born out of Incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The begotten us again in 1 Pet 1:3 is the same word as the born again in 1 Pet 1:23

Thats how the Elect Believe the Gospel after being born out of incorruptible seed !

I can tell you have no spiritual understanding whatsoever !