Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I havent ignored any context, in fact I recognized a word in its context.
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Ye must be born again !
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You are trying to correlate unrelated contexts.
Furthermore, you are teaching that Jesus Christ, the Son of God—needed to be born again.
Jesus is the Baptizer, not one in need of new birth.
Jesus is the source of the very life we receive in regeneration.
Your two key verses above are two entirely different contexts, one speaks of the restoration of the world in the fulfillment of the physical Kingdom promised to Israel, and the other speaks of our salvation. The washing of regeneration (new birth) is in reference to the new birth.
And I apologize, I started this yesterday and for some reason forgot to post it.
God bless
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Im sorry i dont understand your post !
In the post I responded to, you said:
As I said before, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Baptizer, not the One who needs to be born again.
He did not receive the Life He came to bring to men when He was resurrected from the dead. He laid His life down, and He took it up again. He already had that Life, that is what He came to give men. It was necessary that He die in the stead of sinners that He might bestow that Life to men.
I do want to commend you, though, for seeking to teach about New Birth. It is a much overlooked topic and the primary topic we should understand.
As I mentioned, you are micing two entirely different contexts. The regeneration the speaks about is the restoration God promised Israel. There will be a reversion to Pre-Fall conditions at that time (long life for men, and end to enmity between man and animals, and animals and animals). That is the Millennial Kingdom, and it is within this time-frame men will be appointed "judges," in regards to your statement regarding "co-rulership."
It has nothing to do with regeneration in regards to men receiving Life.
And I would have to disagree. Again, Christ is the source of Life. The Son of God did not receive the life He came to give when He died on the Cross and was resurrected, He was that Life already because He was the Son of God:
John 1 KJV
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
How men would receive that life is explained to Nicodemus:
John 3:9-14 KJV
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
So that ...
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Thus the Resurrection of Christ should not be equated to the regeneration of the believer. Nor should it be equated to the regeneration/restoration of the world.
It is Holy, and wholly unique.
Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to point out what I see is a grievous comparison. We must keep the Resurrection of Christ in its proper context, and distinguish it from the receiving of life for the sinner in salvation. Christ was not in need of regeneration/new birth. We should never imply that.
God bless.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Obviously you dont understand.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You say lets see what regeneration means and then you run of with the most fanciful comments which you use to try and change what regeneration actually means. Regeneration is the new birth but at the end you want to deny this and say that regeneration leads to the new birth because that is what your theology requires.
The following dictionaries prove that your view is wrong so you need to change your position.
Regeneration
palingenesia (G3824), "new birth" (palin, "again," genesis, "birth"), is used of "spiritual regeneration," Tit_3:5, involving the communication of a new life, the two operating powers to produce which are "the word of truth," Jas_1:18; 1Pe_1:23, and the Holy Spirit, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:6; the loutron, "the laver, the washing," is explained in Eph_5:26, "having cleansed it by the washing (loutron) of water with the word." Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Only found in Mat_19:28 and Tit_3:5. This word literally means a “new birth.” Easton's Bible Dictionary
The washing of regeneration (paliggenesía, Tit_3:5) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary
Regeneration does not lead to New Birth is is the new birth. It is being in Christ Jesus.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Had the courage NO had the hubris to say that he knew better than Christ Jesus or the Apostles. The fact that you think he was right says a great deal about your faith or should I say lack of faith in the word of God.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Something to know about the New Birth !
Something to know about the New Birth ! New Birth is not the cause of Life, but Life is the cause of the New Birth. For Birth is nothing but the advancement of Life already began, which life is the product of quickening. Quickening gives Life, and The New Birth makes it manifest. For instance, when a Child is born or birthed into this world, its not the beginning of its life, however it is being manifested or brought to light in its new Physical environment, BUT the Life itself is a Miracle Production of God Himself, and from that point it begins its advancement unto an actual Birth. The generator of the Life is the Father, which is Christ, the Head of His Seed, and so gives it Life 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The word quickening here is zōopoieō:
to produce alive, begat or bear living young
2) to cause to live, make alive, give life
a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
b) to restore to life
c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
Remember how it is said that so and so beget so and so Gen 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
So in this sense Jesus begets His Seed. The Word Father means:
father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person
b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
7
9) ruler or chief (spec.)
And so Christ is the Head of His Church, He gives it Life 1 Cor 15:45
And Just as Seth was in Adam's loins in order for Adam to beget him, Then all those Born Again/New Birth had their origin in the Loins of Christ, their Head !
So New Birth is linked to Election in Christ Eph 1:4 !
Something to know about the New Birth ! New Birth is not the cause of Life, but Life is the cause of the New Birth. For Birth is nothing but the advancement of Life already began, which life is the product of quickening. Quickening gives Life, and The New Birth makes it manifest. For instance, when a Child is born or birthed into this world, its not the beginning of its life, however it is being manifested or brought to light in its new Physical environment, BUT the Life itself is a Miracle Production of God Himself, and from that point it begins its advancement unto an actual Birth. The generator of the Life is the Father, which is Christ, the Head of His Seed, and so gives it Life 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The word quickening here is zōopoieō:
to produce alive, begat or bear living young
2) to cause to live, make alive, give life
a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
b) to restore to life
c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
Remember how it is said that so and so beget so and so Gen 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
So in this sense Jesus begets His Seed. The Word Father means:
father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person
b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
7
9) ruler or chief (spec.)
And so Christ is the Head of His Church, He gives it Life 1 Cor 15:45
And Just as Seth was in Adam's loins in order for Adam to beget him, Then all those Born Again/New Birth had their origin in the Loins of Christ, their Head !
So New Birth is linked to Election in Christ Eph 1:4 !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I see you dont understand either, what I said.
Perhaps you can explain to me why the One Who had Life in Him was in need of being born again?
God bless.
The difference between the first birth and the New Birth is that in the first birth physical life is in view. In the New Birth spiritual life is in view. That Christ quickens (makes alive) men is not, as Nicodemus erred, the same thing (the babe) doing the same thing (being birthed again). It is the giving of Eternal Life to those who are ...
... dead.
John 6:49-54 KJV
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Two things to know about regeneration:
1. Only faith in Christ brings about regeneration;
2. No man was born again prior to Pentecost.
Christ contrasts The Living Bread from Heaven with manna from the heavens (sky). Manna provided physical life, Christ provides Eternal Life.
Regeneration for Old Testament Saints is not a Biblical Doctrine, because either men began to be born again on the Day of Pentecost or there are two ways to obtain Eternal Life. No man was believing on Christ in the salvific way that is required, that He died for their sins, and rose again the third day.
The eternal indwelling of God was prophesied here:
John 14:15-23 KJV
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
It is the Comforter that convicts the World, and He began that on the Day of Pentecost:
John 16:7-9 KJV
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Christ is the Baptizer, and it is He that baptized men into Himself. When He does that one is born again.
The dead is made alive in regeneration. And they did not have life prior to that. Thus to teach men are regenerated and then born again is in error. To teach regeneration and the new birth as two events is error. To overlook the context of a passage to create a proof text is error.
As I said, I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am trying to help you understand.
God bless.
Both your assertions are not proved by scripture.
First, there is no verse or passage that says you must display faith before God can make you alive.
If your requirement were true then regeneration is by human works, not by grace alone. Ephesians 2:1-10, 1 Peter 1:3-5 shows us that God is the cause of us having a new life and our faith is the effect.
Second, from Adam onward, each saint was given faith by God so that they were justified by that faith, looking forward to the Promised One who would fully redeem them. They were made alive by God's Spirit and given faith to believe...just like us. Hebrews 11, Hebrews 12:1-3, Matthew 13:17, and 1 Peter 1:10-12 help us understand this truth.
Whenever we demand that man must do something before God can do something, we make the grace of God predicated upon the work of man. This nullifies God's grace as the means/cause of salvation and thus it is a false assertion.
Thanks, for the response, Austin. It might surprise you that, apart from a few improper proof texts, I agree with you. Many today think we are saved by faith through grace, whereas we are, as were the Old Testament Saints, saved by grace through faith. Faith is a response to the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men. That was true in the Old Testament, it is true in the New Testament. The difference in the New Testament is that beginning with Pentecost men were baptized into Christ and received Eternal Life through the eternal indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (the Comforter).
But I have to ask, wy have you not directly responded to what I actually wrote? Can I challenge you to address the "assertions" I made?
Actually there is, and I posted one of them:
What do you think "eating the flesh and drinking the blood" refers to? It is faith in Christ's Sacrifice. It is believing in His death and Resurrection. No man is made alive unless they do that.
Are you going to suggest that men can be made alive apart from faith in Christ? Then you will have to show me this other means of Eternal Life you have found in Scripture.
Secondly, you ignored the other statement I made:
It is not man that generates his own faith, faith is a response to the work of the Holy Ghost. This was true in the Old Testament ...
Acts 7:51-52 KJV
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
... and it is even more true since the Comforter came. He is the One that enlightens the natural mind to the truth of the Gospel, which was a Mystery in the Old Testament. What men are commanded to believe today differs from what they were commanded then:
Acts 17:29-32 KJV
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
The Writer of Hebrews also distinguishes between the judgment of those who rejected the (Covenant of) Law and those rejecting Christ:
Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Again, can you point to the Scripture that supports your view that Eternal Life (and that is what men receive when they are born again) can be attained through some means other than faith in Christ?
Continued...
Again, I agree: the natural man cannot receive or perceive the spiritual things of God, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ heads that list.
It's very simple, the Comforter convicts men of sin (the primary sin being unbelief in Christ, John 16:7-9) and they respond. Most will reject His ministry, some will respond in faith. Christ taught a many/few ratio between believers and unbelievers.
Actually men were justified by their obedience to the revelation GOd gave them in there respective Eras/Ages. Clearly Abel obeyed and offered up sacrifice, whereas Cain tried to offer up of his own works:
Hebrews 12 KJV
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
So where is your Scripture? Regeneration is not found in the Old Tetament. Men were filled with the Holy Ghost, even as they are today (including those who are eternally indwelt), but they did not receive the eternal indwelling, hence eternal life ... until Pentecost.
Hebrews 11 teaches the exact opposite of what you want to be true: they (the OT Saints) did not receive the promises:
Hebrews 11:13 KJV
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
If you would like to know what "perfection means, simply read Hebrews 10:1-4 and Hebrews 10:10-14. "Perfection" means completion, and the fact is the Old Testament Saint was not made perfect in regards to remision of sins until CHrist died in their stead.
So while they were made perfect "with us," they were not made perfect "like us" in their lifetimes.
Hebrews 12:1-3 KJV
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Not sure why you think this cancels out what Hebrews just taught in the previous chapter. In view Is faith. I never said men did not have faith in the Old Testament. The distinction is what they placed faith in. Abraham was justified because he believed God when God told him He would give him a son (which he despaired over) and that this "seed" would bless all families of the earth.
You cannot be justified in an eternal context simply believing God would give Abraham a son, or that he did give him a son, or that the earth would be blessed through that son.
You must believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, and that He died in your stead, and that He arose again.
Continued...
Bottom line, Regeneration is the New Birth in the believer
Regeneration = New Birth
Regeneration = New Birth
First, your view of Jesus words about him being the manna and eating his flesh/drinking his blood strike me as a Roman Catholic theology which posits that persons are justified by faith plus works, making it essential to work your way into God's grace by your actions.
In that passage, Jesus is telling the people that the food which sustained Israel in the wilderness (manna) was a foreshadowing of himself who is the spiritual sustenance for all who are the chosen people of God today. Our nourishment and sustenance in this wilderness (as we wander in exile) is found in Christ alone. We feed off the Spirit of Christ (which is also what the saints before Jesus atoning sacrifice did).
Ephesians 2:1-10 and 1 Peter 1:3-5 both show you that rebirth (making a person alive) is by God's grace alone. The effect of the new birth is faith. Faith is not the cause.
The speaker in the Sermon to the Hebrews (chapter 10) has been laying out how Jesus is the Great High Priest for the Particular people of God. Earlier he lays out that in the High Priestly role, Jesus ever intercedes for us before the Father. He lays out that a New Covenant (a will) was written and that will was invoked when Jesus died. In the reading of the will, the names of those who receive the inheritance as sons and daughters is read and all whom the Father has given to Jesus are found in that Will (New Covenant).
Hebrews 9:11-28 and Hebrews 10:1-39 are spoken to the Children of God who receive their inheritance.
In this assembly of hearers, there maybe persons who have been faking it and simply joined the church because they thought they could get something from the deal (there are always Judas Iscariot's in the midst of God's people). It is to these fakers that the speaker of the sermon gives warning. Notice at the end of Hebrews 10, the speaker comforts true believers that this fate is not for them. He then moves right into chapter 11 to prove to the true believers that God always gave faith to His chosen ones. Finally, in Hebrews 12:2 we see the conclusion that Jesus is both the author of our faith and the finisher of our faith (What a great security that is) which means that our entire redemption and sustenance is God alone (bringing us back to the symbolism of Jesus as our manna).
Matthew 13:17 KJV
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Did you notice that the prophets and righteous men mentioned—didn't see or hear?
When did they hear?
More importantly, what exactly is in view here?
Can I suggest to you that Christ's teaching and the Mysteries He taught were relevant to the Age He came in and the revelation that had been provided to men? He was not declaring the Gospel Mystery, but referring to and teaching concerning the very promises the Old Testament Saint had not yet received. Most of the parables of Christ are relevant to the Millennial Kingdom.
We will see that in your next proof text.
I agree:
1 Peter 1:9-1 KJV
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1. Salvation is in view;
2. The Prophets enquired and searched about salvation, and prophesied of the grace that should come. It had not come in their time. That is because a particular grace is in view, and that is the revelation of the Gospel Mystery;
3. They searched what manner of time the Spirit of Christ—the Son of God, not yet manifest in flesh—was speaking about when He foretold Christ's sufferings and the glory that would follow Christ's death and Resurrection. Meaning they prophesied of Christ but were not privy to what it meant or when it would happen. Nothing in Scripture denies Paul's teaching that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men in past Ages in a way they could understand it;
4. It was revealed to them that the prophecy given them was meant for a later generation;
5.We receive those things (as did those in Peter's day) by those who preach the Gospel—with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven, the Comforter. His ministry is to convict unbelievers concerning Christ, or in other words, to enlighten their natural minds to the Gospel of Christ.
The problem is—I didn't do that, lol.
I reiterate men cannot be born again apart from believing on Christ, and particularly His death, burial, and Resurrection. But you missed the statement concerning how men believe. Only God can enlighten the natural mind to spiritual truth, and again the Gospel of Christ heads that list. But you have to understand that Scripture teaches that the Gospel was not revealed to men in past Ages, nor were men receiving eternal life in past Ages. Why do you think the rich young ruler asked how one could obtain eternal life? In view, because he was not privy to the New Testament, was the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament:
Daniel 12:1-2 KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
They did not expect to gain eternal life during their lifetime, whereas we know we do receive eternal life in the New Birth.
God bless.
Would you mind quoting me saying "Jesus was the manna?"
Are you even reading the responses? You don't appear to be.
Scripture makes it clear, men are justified by faith and works:
James 2 KJV
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The problem Catholics have with this is that they fail to distinguish the difference between justification in a temporal context (which this is, just as Romans 4 is), and justification in an eternal context.
In view is justification, not Eternal Redemption. Here is another man justified in a temporal context:
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.Really, Austin, if you would just respond to what I actually say it would make things much easier.
Continued...
We don't "feed off Christ," lol, we receive Eternal Life when we are baptized into Him in. God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost eternally indwell the believer at salvation. We receive the Life He came to give, hence—the new birth. We are made alive. We were dead prior to that. That is why Christ states that "the fathers are dead:
He didn't need to tell them that they were dead physically, they knew that. He needed to tell them they were dead "spiritually," because they had not received the Living Bread," the True Bread from Heaven.
Hence they were not born again. Regeneration in the Old Testament is a doctrine created to support a Theological System. That is not the only error of that system.
I am breaking these up in hopes of a more direct response to what I am actually saying.
Continued...
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