Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay, so how did Levi become of the seed of Abraham ?
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Ye must be born again !
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
“Seed” in this context means a descendent. Levi was a descendent of Abraham.
The tribe of Levi was set apart to be priests of God. As such, they received no land in Canaan. The other 11 tribes were required to give a tithe (tenth) of all they produced to the Levitical priests to sustain their needs.
The point of the passage in Hebrews is to demonstrate that the members of the Levitical priesthood gave a tithe (a tenth) to Melkesidek (sp?), through Abraham’s offering, demonstrating Melkesidek (sp?) had a greater priesthood than the Levitical priesthood.
Jesus is said to be a priest according to the order of Melkesidek (sp?), which demonstrated the priesthood of Jesus is superior to the Levitical priesthood.
hope that helps
peace to you
I think he wanted scripture related to that and here it is but what I would like know is what does that have to do with the OP Ye must be born again?... Brother Glen
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Btw... Does he have a secret answer we don't know about?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’m really not sure of his point. I believe he may be trying to link Levi “becoming” Abraham’s seed to being “born again”, since Levi was not a son of Abraham, but a ….. great grandson(?).I think he wanted scripture related to that and here it is but what I would like know is what does that have to do with the OP Ye must be born again?... Brother Glen
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Btw... Does he have a secret answer we don't know about?
I thought he had already quoted the passage from Hebrews and was asking it’s meaning reference “seed”.
peace to you
atpollard
Well-Known Member
LEVITES:
Why did God choose the decedents of Levi? Looking at the order of birth, Levi was not the “first fruit” of Jacob.
However, there is an interesting story when Moses returns and finds the “Chosen People” out of control worshiping a golden calf idol and Moses draws a line in the sand … it was the children of Levi that ran to the side of Moses and God without hesitation. A defining moment that SCREAMED volumes about their heart.
I (personally) think that is why God chose the Levites as HIS portion and that was the moment when the Levites chose God as their portion. Actions speak louder than words.
Just my 2 cents.
[EDIT: Technically, I am a Particular Baptist … so that choice was made before the earth and God’s choice was merely revealed at that moment in time.]
Why did God choose the decedents of Levi? Looking at the order of birth, Levi was not the “first fruit” of Jacob.
However, there is an interesting story when Moses returns and finds the “Chosen People” out of control worshiping a golden calf idol and Moses draws a line in the sand … it was the children of Levi that ran to the side of Moses and God without hesitation. A defining moment that SCREAMED volumes about their heart.
I (personally) think that is why God chose the Levites as HIS portion and that was the moment when the Levites chose God as their portion. Actions speak louder than words.
Just my 2 cents.
[EDIT: Technically, I am a Particular Baptist … so that choice was made before the earth and God’s choice was merely revealed at that moment in time.]
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You still didnt answer the question, but thats okay !
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought you asked how Levi became a seed of Abraham. I explain “seed” means descendent and Levi was his grandson.
I then explained the context of the passage in Hebrews that you mentioned, that Levi (Jewish priesthood) gave tithes to Melkisedek (sp?) through Abraham (being of his seed) demonstrating the Melkisedek priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood.
Since Jesus is a High Priest of the order of Melkisedek, His priesthood is superior the Levitical priesthood.
If I misunderstood your question, please explain and I’ll attempt to answer if I can.
peace to you
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Ye must be born again !
John 3:7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ye must be born again is a fundamental doctrine of Christ, and is the difference between God Revealed Religion[Christianity] and man made religions.
If we take away the necessity of the New Birth [by false teaching] then Christianity becomes another foul and hateful bird Rev 18:2
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
The prevailing concept of men in all man made religions is that man has the ability to reform himself, change himself, yes even give himself a new birth, or have a hand in it. Yet scripture says Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
The BBE Translation reads: Is it possible for the skin of the Ethiopian to be changed, or the markings on the leopard? Then it might be possible for you to do good, who have been trained to do evil.
The natural man believes in himself and believes through self effort, religious instruction, and a conducive environment, they can become Christians or acceptable characters before God; This no doubt was King Agrippa reasoning when he replied to paul thusly Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
A man must be born again[or from above] to receive Christ [who is from above],His Doctrine, to believe on His Name, thats taught here Jn 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Vs 13 explains or gives reason for vs 12
John 3:7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ye must be born again is a fundamental doctrine of Christ, and is the difference between God Revealed Religion[Christianity] and man made religions.
If we take away the necessity of the New Birth [by false teaching] then Christianity becomes another foul and hateful bird Rev 18:2
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
The prevailing concept of men in all man made religions is that man has the ability to reform himself, change himself, yes even give himself a new birth, or have a hand in it. Yet scripture says Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
The BBE Translation reads: Is it possible for the skin of the Ethiopian to be changed, or the markings on the leopard? Then it might be possible for you to do good, who have been trained to do evil.
The natural man believes in himself and believes through self effort, religious instruction, and a conducive environment, they can become Christians or acceptable characters before God; This no doubt was King Agrippa reasoning when he replied to paul thusly Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
A man must be born again[or from above] to receive Christ [who is from above],His Doctrine, to believe on His Name, thats taught here Jn 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Vs 13 explains or gives reason for vs 12
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Read Post # 2 and maybe you can understand what I mean.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I reread the post. Quite frankly, I don’t have a clue as to what point you are making.
Perhaos if you speak plainly, without scripture for now, and used about 15-20 words to make your point, I think that would help.
peace to you
37818
Well-Known Member
εκ
1 John 5:1, John 1:12-13.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I did speak plainly.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It is not a command to do !
Jn 3:6-7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ye must be born again is not Jesus giving a command for people to do. No more would Jesus command a person to be born Spiritually as He would command a person to be born physically, for its just not in mans power to be born.
vs 6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
When speaking of that which is born, its always in the passive voice, not the active voice.
However though it is not a imperative for one to go do, it is a biological necessity ! When I say biological, I means as in biology, having life. Man cannot give himself life, though its necessary to have in order to perform functions in life.
You see men by nature is only flesh, and corrupt sinful flesh, so says Jesus in vs 6. The flesh can be reformed, cultured and instructed, but it remains sinful flesh. The word flesh is generic as well and scripture uses it to constitute man as a whole, soul and body and spirit; And men by nature [flesh] is dead, dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; See Matt 8:22
Eph 2:1 is a biological condition. This does not mean that man has no living vitality, but its in a sphere that is alienated from the Life of God Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Take plant life for example and Animal life, both have life, however there is a biological difference in their type of lives, Animal Life is of a Higher order than plant life, so it is with the Spiritual that is of the incorruptible seed Christ, and that Natural Life in Adam of corruptible seed. See 1 Pet 1:23.
We by natural birth are alive only in that Life derived from Adam, the sphere of the flesh Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
And we are dead and alienated to the things of God all the while in the flesh. Even when and if we are super religious, and very sincere and serious about it, we are still only functioning in the sphere of the flesh. That is what Jesus was telling a very religious man at the time.
Nicodemus, ye must be born again, or there is no life in you. Jn 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man is a evidence of life, of spiritual life. To believe on Him, for that's what to eat and drink mean here, we must have already have been given life from the dead. For its a spiritual eating and a spiritual drinking by Faith.40
Jn 3:6-7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ye must be born again is not Jesus giving a command for people to do. No more would Jesus command a person to be born Spiritually as He would command a person to be born physically, for its just not in mans power to be born.
vs 6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
When speaking of that which is born, its always in the passive voice, not the active voice.
However though it is not a imperative for one to go do, it is a biological necessity ! When I say biological, I means as in biology, having life. Man cannot give himself life, though its necessary to have in order to perform functions in life.
You see men by nature is only flesh, and corrupt sinful flesh, so says Jesus in vs 6. The flesh can be reformed, cultured and instructed, but it remains sinful flesh. The word flesh is generic as well and scripture uses it to constitute man as a whole, soul and body and spirit; And men by nature [flesh] is dead, dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; See Matt 8:22
Eph 2:1 is a biological condition. This does not mean that man has no living vitality, but its in a sphere that is alienated from the Life of God Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Take plant life for example and Animal life, both have life, however there is a biological difference in their type of lives, Animal Life is of a Higher order than plant life, so it is with the Spiritual that is of the incorruptible seed Christ, and that Natural Life in Adam of corruptible seed. See 1 Pet 1:23.
We by natural birth are alive only in that Life derived from Adam, the sphere of the flesh Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
And we are dead and alienated to the things of God all the while in the flesh. Even when and if we are super religious, and very sincere and serious about it, we are still only functioning in the sphere of the flesh. That is what Jesus was telling a very religious man at the time.
Nicodemus, ye must be born again, or there is no life in you. Jn 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man is a evidence of life, of spiritual life. To believe on Him, for that's what to eat and drink mean here, we must have already have been given life from the dead. For its a spiritual eating and a spiritual drinking by Faith.40
FYI...
The majority of the world's Christians believe that being born again = being baptized.
Jesus told Nicodemus two things were required to be born again: water and the Spirit. To most Christians, this is believed to occur at baptism.
This was the case until Zwingli came along and thus here we are!
The majority of the world's Christians believe that being born again = being baptized.
Jesus told Nicodemus two things were required to be born again: water and the Spirit. To most Christians, this is believed to occur at baptism.
This was the case until Zwingli came along and thus here we are!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Post 34 did you read and understand?
I did read it. Introducing the topic of the Eucharist (eating the body and blood of Christ) is also going to be problematic as the majority of the world's Christians, both historically and presently, understand that to be quite literal.
Just like being born again = being baptized, it took people changing that belief to get us here.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
A second communication of Life !
Jn 3:7
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Marvel Not ! The word marvel is a word that denotes astonishment, wonderment. Its the word used in Lk 8:25
25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Its the word admired as in 2 Thess 1:10
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
What Jesus was saying to Nicodemus is that a man must receive a second life, a second communication of life. He was not telling Nicodemus to do that for himself, for that's impossible, for men cannot communicate to themselves a new birth or a new life, though many delude themselves into thinking they can .
Lets think about birth for a moment, as we see the analogy of it from natural birth. Does Natural Life exist before it's manifestation at Birth ? When a Mother gives birth to a child for the first time, was that the very beginning of that Child's Life ? If any has any sense at all of the bio of a birth, then you know that the actual birth of a baby was not the beginning of its life, but only the manifestation of a conception and a development, that conception being 9 months prior, under normal circumstances. If this be true of natural birth, then I hesitate not that its equally true of a Spiritual Birth, that is, that a life existed [Spiritually Jn 1:4]] before it is brought into manifestation by Birth.
In order to be born, we must first be the offspring of the One giving Birth. To have been given physical birth into this physical world, we had to be the offspring of our Physical Father, His seed, and so likewise to be given Spiritual Birth, we had to be the offspring of a Spiritual Father ! Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Now I would venture to say that most would agree that this verse is referring to Jesus Christ, and it indicates that He has a seed. The word seed here is the hebrew word zera`and means:
seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
Jesus has a offspring, Just as a Physical Father has a offspring, so Christ as a Spiritual Father has a offspring, spiritual descendants.
Jesus in the realm of redemption is a Father, even from everlasting, that's what's indicated in Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
We know this verse is speaking of the Son of God, and all the different titles belong to Him, one of which is the Everlasting Father. This is not designating Him God the Father, But pointing to His being a Father of a spiritual seed given Him. The word Father is the Hebrew word 'ab and means:
of producer, generator (fig.)
A Generator ! What's that ? it means:
to bring into existence; cause to be; produce.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the generator of His spiritual offspring, He brings them into existence, produces them, cause them to be !
Their[His Offspring or seed] Life was in Him. Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
What Life ? The Life of His seed, His Offspring.
All of what I am showing here is important to Jesus statement, "Ye must be born again " and exactly what that means. Jesus means, that one must have a second communication of life given them.
Jn 3:7
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Marvel Not ! The word marvel is a word that denotes astonishment, wonderment. Its the word used in Lk 8:25
25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Its the word admired as in 2 Thess 1:10
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
What Jesus was saying to Nicodemus is that a man must receive a second life, a second communication of life. He was not telling Nicodemus to do that for himself, for that's impossible, for men cannot communicate to themselves a new birth or a new life, though many delude themselves into thinking they can .
Lets think about birth for a moment, as we see the analogy of it from natural birth. Does Natural Life exist before it's manifestation at Birth ? When a Mother gives birth to a child for the first time, was that the very beginning of that Child's Life ? If any has any sense at all of the bio of a birth, then you know that the actual birth of a baby was not the beginning of its life, but only the manifestation of a conception and a development, that conception being 9 months prior, under normal circumstances. If this be true of natural birth, then I hesitate not that its equally true of a Spiritual Birth, that is, that a life existed [Spiritually Jn 1:4]] before it is brought into manifestation by Birth.
In order to be born, we must first be the offspring of the One giving Birth. To have been given physical birth into this physical world, we had to be the offspring of our Physical Father, His seed, and so likewise to be given Spiritual Birth, we had to be the offspring of a Spiritual Father ! Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Now I would venture to say that most would agree that this verse is referring to Jesus Christ, and it indicates that He has a seed. The word seed here is the hebrew word zera`and means:
seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
Jesus has a offspring, Just as a Physical Father has a offspring, so Christ as a Spiritual Father has a offspring, spiritual descendants.
Jesus in the realm of redemption is a Father, even from everlasting, that's what's indicated in Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
We know this verse is speaking of the Son of God, and all the different titles belong to Him, one of which is the Everlasting Father. This is not designating Him God the Father, But pointing to His being a Father of a spiritual seed given Him. The word Father is the Hebrew word 'ab and means:
of producer, generator (fig.)
A Generator ! What's that ? it means:
to bring into existence; cause to be; produce.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the generator of His spiritual offspring, He brings them into existence, produces them, cause them to be !
Their[His Offspring or seed] Life was in Him. Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
What Life ? The Life of His seed, His Offspring.
All of what I am showing here is important to Jesus statement, "Ye must be born again " and exactly what that means. Jesus means, that one must have a second communication of life given them.
Astonishing, you completely ignore what Jesus himself told Nicodemus is required to be born again. Jesus answers the question!
It wasn't until good ole Zwingli came along and had the courage to say Jesus and the Apostles were actually wrong about baptism and hence here were are today in a "Baptist" forum!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
What is a Birth ?
In continuing to understand what Jesus means by " Ye must be born again " we will be more specific as to what a birth is. The greek word in our text is the word gennaō and means:
of men who fathered children
a) to be born
b) to be begotten
1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
c) of God making Christ his son
d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
As stated earlier, we must be first the offspring of the One giving birth, mainly the Father.
A birth is a continuing of a Father, a Progenitor , of whom they [the seed] take their image after. Remember Gen 5:3-4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
The word for beget and begotten in this passage is the Hebrew word yalad and means :
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
a) (Qal)
1) to bear, bring forth
a) of child birth
b) of distress (simile)
c) of wicked (behaviour)
2) to beget
b) (Niphal) to be born
c) (Piel)
1) to cause or help to bring forth
2) to assist or tend as a midwife
3) midwife (participle)
d) (Pual) to be born
e) (Hiphil)
1) to beget (a child)
Now how did Seth become Adam's offspring or seed ? Remember Eve said at his birth Gen 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed[Offspring] instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Did Seth become Adam's Offspring by His own will ? Was it His choice to be born of As Adam's seed ? Or was it as Eve stated, that God hath appointed Him their seed or Offspring. We may learn that it's up to God's appointment who belongs to whose offspring and whom they will receive birth.
So its only one way that Seth became the Offspring of Adam, that was by the Sovereign purpose of God.
A birth, a seed, is determined by God, not the freewill of men. Its the continuation of a man's image and likeness.
In continuing to understand what Jesus means by " Ye must be born again " we will be more specific as to what a birth is. The greek word in our text is the word gennaō and means:
of men who fathered children
a) to be born
b) to be begotten
1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
c) of God making Christ his son
d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
As stated earlier, we must be first the offspring of the One giving birth, mainly the Father.
A birth is a continuing of a Father, a Progenitor , of whom they [the seed] take their image after. Remember Gen 5:3-4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
The word for beget and begotten in this passage is the Hebrew word yalad and means :
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
a) (Qal)
1) to bear, bring forth
a) of child birth
b) of distress (simile)
c) of wicked (behaviour)
2) to beget
b) (Niphal) to be born
c) (Piel)
1) to cause or help to bring forth
2) to assist or tend as a midwife
3) midwife (participle)
d) (Pual) to be born
e) (Hiphil)
1) to beget (a child)
Now how did Seth become Adam's offspring or seed ? Remember Eve said at his birth Gen 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed[Offspring] instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Did Seth become Adam's Offspring by His own will ? Was it His choice to be born of As Adam's seed ? Or was it as Eve stated, that God hath appointed Him their seed or Offspring. We may learn that it's up to God's appointment who belongs to whose offspring and whom they will receive birth.
So its only one way that Seth became the Offspring of Adam, that was by the Sovereign purpose of God.
A birth, a seed, is determined by God, not the freewill of men. Its the continuation of a man's image and likeness.
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