Yea, but several people HAVE changed

[Luke2427]

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do. You have your head in the sand if you cannot see that THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Arminians are changing their minds due to debate in this country.

And I'll tell you another thing. Some act like my aggressiveness in debate is counterproductive. I can tell you that if you think that you are dead wrong. No, some don't want to admit at first that my arguments were instrumental in switching them over because they were stung by them, but the fact is that I have PERSONALLY persuaded NUMEROUS Arminians to embrace the Doctrines of Grace.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do. You have your head in the sand if you cannot see that THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Arminians are changing their minds due to debate in this country.

And I'll tell you another thing. Some act like my aggressiveness in debate is counterproductive. I can tell you that if you think that you are dead wrong. No, some don't want to admit at first that my arguments were instrumental in switching them over because they were stung by them, but the fact is that I have PERSONALLY persuaded NUMEROUS Arminians to embrace the Doctrines of Grace.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

That is exactly what they don't want Rick.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[preacher4truth]

Yep, some have changed and have believed the truth, the scales falling off their eyes.

It's no different here in a sense than in the real world, the reformed will preach the truth, and God will save His people via the Gospel and open some eyes to the truth, concerning those professing to being His.

In fact, preaching this as of now in church, eyes are being opened to the truth and hearts are being changed. It's really a joy and a blessing to see the tears of joy and countenances of joy when persons come to the knowledge of the truth!

 

[salzer mtn]

I for one was once a rank Arminian years ago, believing also in backsliding and latter on changing my view of backsliding to eternal salvation, but after hearing the gospel and through much wrestling of soul and many falls of seeing my own depraved heart, Gods grace is more precious to me than silver and gold.

 

[Skandelon]

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

Whatchew talkin bout, Willis? I don't believe that is accurate, but again I haven't been around as much lately so I could be mistaken.

But, I agree. This forum can make a difference. I too know of several, myself included, who have changed their views. Or at least 'kept from being converted to the Calvinistic system' because of visiting this site. I get PMs on occasion saying as much...

But, ironically its the determinist here giving some amount of credit to the forum for a change in human will? How can it be? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

I for one was once a rank Arminian years ago, believing also in backsliding and latter on changing my view of backsliding to eternal salvation, but after hearing the gospel and through much wrestling of soul and many falls of seeing my own depraved heart, Gods grace is more precious to me than silver and gold.

Let me guess. You think all us 'Arminian' types believe that God looks through the corridors of time to see who will believe in Christ and then elects them, right? That's what I used to think too when i was converted to the Calvinistic doctrine, but that is not the view most scholarly non-Calvinistic baptists actually believe and few Calvinists, before becoming Calvinists, even know this. They think they know what the alternative views are, but rarely they do. They accept Calvinism over a widely rejected and simplistic approach to two very complex doctrines, but I believe if they were properly educated on all the views PRIOR to being set in their ways, their would be much fewer going down the Calvinistic path.

 

[webdog]

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do. You have your head in the sand if you cannot see that THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Arminians are changing their minds due to debate in this country.

And I'll tell you another thing. Some act like my aggressiveness in debate is counterproductive. I can tell you that if you think that you are dead wrong. No, some don't want to admit at first that my arguments were instrumental in switching them over because they were stung by them, but the fact is that I have PERSONALLY persuaded NUMEROUS Arminians to embrace the Doctrines of Grace.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

I've had 3 people private message me stating they left DOG theology due to some of my arguments. THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Calvinists are changing their minds in this country!

Strange that someone who attributes complete determinism to God credits 'debate' for this alleged change of mind.

 

[Revmitchell]

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do. You have your head in the sand if you cannot see that THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Arminians are changing their minds due to debate in this country.

And I'll tell you another thing. Some act like my aggressiveness in debate is counterproductive. I can tell you that if you think that you are dead wrong. No, some don't want to admit at first that my arguments were instrumental in switching them over because they were stung by them, but the fact is that I have PERSONALLY persuaded NUMEROUS Arminians to embrace the Doctrines of Grace.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

Doesn't it have to be all God rather than rigorous heated debate?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yep, some have changed and have believed the truth, the scales falling off their eyes.

It's no different here in a sense than in the real world, the reformed will preach the truth, and God will save His people via the Gospel and open some eyes to the truth, concerning those professing to being His.

In fact, preaching this as of now in church, eyes are being opened to the truth and hearts are being changed. It's really a joy and a blessing to see the tears of joy and countenances of joy when persons come to the knowledge of the truth!

Just 2 thoughts...

First, I hope i am reading you wrong, but it seems to me that you write of coming to the reformed side as if you are being saved "scales falling off their eyes"... "eyes being opened and hearts being changed" ... "coming to the knowledge of the truth". It just seems a little over bearing.

2nd, when non-reformed preach the Word, God saves His people and their eyes are being opened. I know that reformed preachers like Luke2427 preach the Gospel and God saves people. But we do too.

 

[preacher4truth]

Just 2 thoughts...

First, I hope i am reading you wrong, but it seems to me that you write of coming to the reformed side as if you are being saved "scales falling off their eyes"... "eyes being opened and hearts being changed" ... "coming to the knowledge of the truth". It just seems a little over bearing.

Yes, you're incorrect about it. It's not about them being saved, but unless a person experiences this, they will remain clueless as to what I've stated, yet many have experienced this and are aware of what I am talking about.

2nd, when non-reformed preach the Word, God saves His people and their eyes are being opened. I know that reformed preachers like Luke2427 preach the Gospel and God saves people. But we do too.

God will save His people by any means via any preacher at any time He so desires. (not taking anything away from Luke2427 in my statement by the way).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just 2 thoughts...

First, I hope i am reading you wrong, but it seems to me that you write of coming to the reformed side as if you are being saved "scales falling off their eyes"... "eyes being opened and hearts being changed" ... "coming to the knowledge of the truth". It just seems a little over bearing.

2nd, when non-reformed preach the Word, God saves His people and their eyes are being opened. I know that reformed preachers like Luke2427 preach the Gospel and God saves people. But we do too.

Tom .... this type of exuberance for one type of Soteriology leads me to be skeptical about churches integrating with any large degree of success.....yes I know the SBC claims it however you see the total commitment by both P4T & LUKE .... to the point of even doing battle in order to put forth the Doctrines of Grace stance. I bow to your over 30 years of experience, in trying to understand this situation.

*Does it make sense for a separation of Churches on these doctrinal stances? or

*Can there be a understanding to avoid tribal disputes?

Personally, Id just go to a Reformed Baptist Church where Im somewhat more comfortable. I have been in Non Cal churches & have squirmed through a service because what is being taught does not relate to my own religious standards & convictions....Im certain that a non cal would feel the same way I do in a DoG Church.

 

[prophet]

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

The statement "the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do", is an example of why debate rarely helps. You have no idea how illiterate you sound.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

It wasn't from a previous thread. My comment was made here:
From the New Mod

This is the operative phrase from the post.

Neither side should expect nor should they become exasperated when nobody crosses the aisle.

Please note I said either side. So it applies to the As as well as the Cs.

Somebody purported on a previous thread that we are not going to change anybody's mind in this Calvinism/Arminianism thing.

Wrong.

On this very BOARD I know of TWO people who have had their minds changed in the last year or so... Amy and Willls.

They are just the first two that come to mind.

Some people want to pretend that rigorous debates are not going to change people's minds but the fact of the matter is that they absolutely do. You have your head in the sand if you cannot see that THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Arminians are changing their minds due to debate in this country.

And I'll tell you another thing. Some act like my aggressiveness in debate is counterproductive. I can tell you that if you think that you are dead wrong. No, some don't want to admit at first that my arguments were instrumental in switching them over because they were stung by them, but the fact is that I have PERSONALLY persuaded NUMEROUS Arminians to embrace the Doctrines of Grace.

Debate works- rigorous, heated debate.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes, you're incorrect about it. It's not about them being saved, but unless a person experiences this, they will remain clueless as to what I've stated, yet many have experienced this and are aware of what I am talking about.



God will save His people by any means via any preacher at any time He so desires. (not taking anything away from Luke2427 in my statement by the way).

So I guess we haven't had the 2nd blessing you guys have... :tongue3:

 

[Herald]

Very few people are swayed by a debate while in the moment. Change often takes time. It is a process. It was that way for me. I read, listened to preachers, and participated on message boards. By the time I admitted that I had changed I really had changed long before that.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Tom .... this type of exuberance for one type of Soteriology leads me to be skeptical about churches integrating with any large degree of success.....yes I know the SBC claims it however you see the total commitment by both P4T & LUKE .... to the point of even doing battle in order to put forth the Doctrines of Grace stance. I bow to your over 30 years of experience, in trying to understand this situation.

*Does it make sense for a separation of Churches on these doctrinal stances? or

*Can there be a understanding to avoid tribal disputes?

Personally, Id just go to a Reformed Baptist Church where Im somewhat more comfortable. I have been in Non Cal churches & have squirmed through a service because what is being taught does not relate to my own religious standards & convictions....Im certain that a non cal would feel the same way I do in a DoG Church.

A local church can have people who believe what I believe and what reformed/dog/calvinists believe. We have all sides of this disagreement in our own church. When I taught about this a few months ago, i asked one of them to tell the church what he believed. We did NOT debate it.

But if there is one person in a reformed church who makes their disagreement a issue, it won't work. If there is 1 person in our church makes my not being reformed a big issue, there will be no peace.

I am part of the SBC and for years, both groups have lived and served together. We can do the same if both groups make reaching and discipling people their main goal. But if they make turning the Convention into 1 side or another, we're bound for a break.

But in the SBC, there is more to the issue than just soteriology. It also deals with ecclesiology as to elder/congregational rule of the church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very few people are swayed by a debate while in the moment. Change often takes time. It is a process. It was that way for me. I read, listened to preachers, and participated on message boards. By the time I admitted that I had changed I really had changed long before that.

My wife is a recovered alcoholic and what she has seen in those rooms preety much convinced her that we are all totally consumed by sin and that's a human thing. She agrees that only spirit can produce spirit...thus she is a committed DoG believer & doesn't see how you could be anything else. Could anybody speak to that...dispute or agree?

 

[Revmitchell]

Threads like this just prove everything I have ever said.

 

[Iconoclast]

But, ironically its the determinist here giving some amount of credit to the forum for a change in human will? How can it be?

Strange that someone who attributes complete determinism to God credits 'debate' for this alleged change of mind.

Doesn't it have to be all God rather than rigorous heated debate?
__________________

God has ordained the ways and the means....He uses people teaching and preaching the word to other people....there is no need to wonder about this at all if the teaching is properly understood...

5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.
( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

 

[salzer mtn]

Let me guess. You think all us 'Arminian' types believe that God looks through the corridors of time to see who will believe in Christ and then elects them, right? That's what I used to think too when i was converted to the Calvinistic doctrine, but that is not the view most scholarly non-Calvinistic baptists actually believe and few Calvinists, before becoming Calvinists, even know this. They think they know what the alternative views are, but rarely they do. They accept Calvinism over a widely rejected and simplistic approach to two very complex doctrines, but I believe if they were properly educated on all the views PRIOR to being set in their ways, their would be much fewer going down the Calvinistic path.

Skandelon, I have read and enjoyed all the debates on Cal/Armin. I commend the non cals for their ability to bring out scripture for their defense, but just because I am from TN. doesn't mean I can't comprehend. When I was a rank Arminian I could take you through scripture to back up my view of backsliding. The CoC can also do the same to back up water baptism for salvation. The doctrines of grace which some call Calvinism IMO is the only belief that gives all the glory to God and put's man in the dust or abases him where he belongs. One other thing, since I was taught of God to embrace the doctrines of grace I have experienced a closeness to God that I never experienced in Arminian doctrine. When I married my wife some forty two years ago she was a charismatic Methodist, her dad was a preacher that believe in the second working of grace to become sanctified. He believed and preached to be sanctified you live above sin. My wife told me the other day that she stood amazed at the grace of God that brought her out of that stuff to believe today in a Sovereign God.