Yes, to be "in Christ" means to be walking in obedience, etc.
Because those who are habitually sinning w/o repentance ...
cannot inherit/enter the kingdom of God (aka heaven).
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Yes, it is possible to reconcile all of the New Testament Scriptures
- Thread starter Browner
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Because those who are habitually sinning w/o repentance ...
cannot inherit/enter the kingdom of God (aka heaven).
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
It doesn't. The thing is I'm not going to spend my time with anyone who refuses to study this out for themselves, and instead only wants to argue. Simply looking at your responses shows you neither know the teaching nor do you desire to know them. That would take effort on your part.
Hi Browner, this post is in response to your opening post. I have not yet read any of the follow-up comments by others. As I was reading through your post, I extracted your questions, and then provided a brief anwer.
1) “and receive Jesus’ imputed righteousness” or were made righteous.
2) “Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?” Nope
3) “Does anyone get to heaven who does not keep His commands?” Here is a great question. When God puts us spiritually into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where our sin burden (what God holds against us for our unholiness) is removed. We then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, created for good works. But Christ’s cleansing, the washing of regeneration, continuously bathes us such that it is as if we keep all His commands, from God’s perspective. We, convicted by the Holy Spirit, are keenly aware of our shortcomings, we see that we do not keep all of His commands. But from God’s perspective, because we are continuously washed by the blood of the Lamb, we keep all His commands.
Another way this concept is explained is justification, when we are justified, even though we fall short, it is just as though we did not sin.
4) “Those who “know” Jesus keep His commandments; this “knowing” results in eternal life! Close. When God puts us spiritually in Him, and Him in us (indwelling of the Holy Spirit) then we “know” (have an intimate relationship with Christ) and Christ knows (has an intimate relationship) with us. So if “knows” is used to mean being spiritually in Christ, then yes, this results in eternal life.
5) “but he who does not bear fruit is cast out,” Jesus promised that those God puts in Him, He will never cast out, John 6:37. On the other had, if Christ abides in you (you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit) you will bear fruit. Tares, professing Christians who are not born anew, are cast out and burned up at the end of the age.
6) Those who overcome “as I also overcame” will be allowed to be seated with Him in heaven.” When we are born anew, placed in Christ, we become “overcomers,” for we have overcome, with the help of the blood of Christ, all that sin had over us. Our salvation is based on the blood of Christ, not our efforts to please God. Salvation is not of works.
Thus the whole NT gospel is consistent and in harmony.
Once we are saved, in Christ, born anew, indwelt, we strive to follow Christ (become more Christ-like) and to serve Him, carry out our measure of ministry, be it evangelizing, or raking leaves. As part of the body of Christ we have our jobs to do as we carry out the ministry of reconciliation. We can earn rewards as part of this salvation, but we can also loose rewards by engaging in ministry that produces wood and straw. So when you see verses talking about loss of salvation, read it carefully, the idea is always loss of rewards, but we still get to heaven as one escaping from a fire.
1) “and receive Jesus’ imputed righteousness” or were made righteous.
2) “Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?” Nope
3) “Does anyone get to heaven who does not keep His commands?” Here is a great question. When God puts us spiritually into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where our sin burden (what God holds against us for our unholiness) is removed. We then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, created for good works. But Christ’s cleansing, the washing of regeneration, continuously bathes us such that it is as if we keep all His commands, from God’s perspective. We, convicted by the Holy Spirit, are keenly aware of our shortcomings, we see that we do not keep all of His commands. But from God’s perspective, because we are continuously washed by the blood of the Lamb, we keep all His commands.
Another way this concept is explained is justification, when we are justified, even though we fall short, it is just as though we did not sin.
4) “Those who “know” Jesus keep His commandments; this “knowing” results in eternal life! Close. When God puts us spiritually in Him, and Him in us (indwelling of the Holy Spirit) then we “know” (have an intimate relationship with Christ) and Christ knows (has an intimate relationship) with us. So if “knows” is used to mean being spiritually in Christ, then yes, this results in eternal life.
5) “but he who does not bear fruit is cast out,” Jesus promised that those God puts in Him, He will never cast out, John 6:37. On the other had, if Christ abides in you (you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit) you will bear fruit. Tares, professing Christians who are not born anew, are cast out and burned up at the end of the age.
6) Those who overcome “as I also overcame” will be allowed to be seated with Him in heaven.” When we are born anew, placed in Christ, we become “overcomers,” for we have overcome, with the help of the blood of Christ, all that sin had over us. Our salvation is based on the blood of Christ, not our efforts to please God. Salvation is not of works.
Thus the whole NT gospel is consistent and in harmony.
Once we are saved, in Christ, born anew, indwelt, we strive to follow Christ (become more Christ-like) and to serve Him, carry out our measure of ministry, be it evangelizing, or raking leaves. As part of the body of Christ we have our jobs to do as we carry out the ministry of reconciliation. We can earn rewards as part of this salvation, but we can also loose rewards by engaging in ministry that produces wood and straw. So when you see verses talking about loss of salvation, read it carefully, the idea is always loss of rewards, but we still get to heaven as one escaping from a fire.
I believe my investigative questioning exposes errors in theologies. Thus the tuck and runs I often get.It doesn't. The thing is I'm not going to spend my time with anyone who refuses to study this out for themselves, and instead only wants to argue. Simply looking at your responses shows you neither know the teaching nor do you desire to know them. That would take effort on your part.
Actually, your response has served the purpose of my question. SmileCould someone please sell me one of those enormous laughing emicons?
'Cause I'm in dire need of one ... naw as many as you can spare!
Would $1k each be reasonable?
I just pulled out a few of your ideas, which are incorrect.
(3) True believers are told to keep repenting (several verses).
True believers are told to keep confessing (1 John 1:7--2:1).
(4) Some true believers choose to continue sinning.
Some true believers choose to not have an intimate relationship
with Father and Son.
(6) James kept harping on:
faith without works is dead (referring to good deeds, etc.).
These works do not refer to co-operating with the Holy Spirit,
keeping God's commandments, etc.
Hi Browner, lets go over these one by one:
1)"True believers are told to keep repenting" Yes, and I did not say otherwise. From our persective, we are convicted of our sins, which we are to confess and repent so as to strive to avoid in the future.
2) Yes, all born anew believers, continue to fall short and sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.
3) All born anew believers still do sinful acts, but God does not count them against us, because we have been made perfect, flawless.
4) "Some true believers choose not to have an intimate relationship with the Father and Son. Utter nonsense.
5) When Paul and James speak of "faith" they are speaking of "faithful faith" the faith from which flow faithfulness.
2) Yes, all born anew believers, continue to fall short and sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.
3) All born anew believers still do sinful acts, but God does not count them against us, because we have been made perfect, flawless.
4) "Some true believers choose not to have an intimate relationship with the Father and Son. Utter nonsense.
5) When Paul and James speak of "faith" they are speaking of "faithful faith" the faith from which flow faithfulness.
Thus I do not see where I expressed any incorrect ideas.
Bottom line, Salvation is 100% of God, and is neither obtained through works or sustained through works. But our rewards for service are earned through works or lost through worthless works.
What part do you find laughable? That Jesus Christ is eternal life? Please be more specific so we can go to the scripture and see what God says about this.
Wouldest thou likest to see the various NT verses which state:
those who are practicing/working righteousness
are indeed righteous!
These verses imply that those who are not ... are not.
But, of course, if the Lord is playing word games with us ...
all bets are off.
Also, would you like to see proof from the NT about ...
"the crown of (eternal) life"?
Sorry, I was a bit hasty with the laughing bit.
Please see post #21.
Not sure how this answers why you laugh when I said Jesus Christ is eternal life?
I was referring to your ...
"All in Christ receive both (the kingdom and heaven)."
Because I don't think you understand what "in Christ" really means.
Well you quoted me this post when you laughed....
"Eternal life/Jesus Christ is already possessed by the believer who has been born of God. So the narrow and difficult way is being in Jesus Christ."
I believe I understand perfectly well how Paul described being "in Jesus Christ"....
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Ro8)
Do you have another pov of the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you?
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jo3)
So what is it you think I don't understand about being born of the Spirit having Christ in you?
This passage is describing the exact opposite.
Except, does "in the Spirit" mean "in Jesus"?
However, IMO, believers are not in the Spirit,
IF they are not practicing/working righteousness.
'Cause only those ones are considered by God to be righteous.
Romans 8 makes it perfectly clear that "in the Spirit" means having the Spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling in you. Anyone not having the Spirit of Jesus Christ is "none of His". I presume you would confess that you have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you, correct?
Browner, this statement is an oxymoron..."believers are not in the Spirit".
If one is a believer, one is in the Spirit. There is no such thing as a believer without the Spirit of Jesus Christ. One does not go in and out of Christ as they live their lives. Being born of God is a one time act of God placing one "in Christ". Afterwards comes a life of sanctification which can oftentimes look pretty messy.
In one's reconciling of the NT passages, one might consider these ...
“… narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)
“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower,
does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has
enough to finish it — lest, after he has laid the foundation,
and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?
... So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:27-33)
Again, so much for the easy believism and easy grace gospel.
“… narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)
“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower,
does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has
enough to finish it — lest, after he has laid the foundation,
and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?
... So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:27-33)
Again, so much for the easy believism and easy grace gospel.
If one is going to reconcile the NT scriptures, one must understand what it means to be in Christ.
One doesn't go in and out of Christ. One is either born again, which is being placed in Christ, or one has never been born-again.
What you are promoting is a person being born-again, then unborn, then born-again, then unborn, etc, as they have righteous deeds verses unrighteous deeds. This is ridiculous.
Browner,
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
You really need to meditate upon Gal 3.
Sorry, the NT Scriptures make it very clear indeed that ...
OSAS is a false doctrine ... and therefore a person who
was "in Christ" when he/she first received the Holy Spirit
can drop out of being "in Christ" at a later point in time.
If indeed the Holy Spirit remains in this type of person
until he/she dies, this does not mean that such a person
will be going to heaven. I.E. having the indwelling Holy
Spirit does not guarantee that a person will go to heaven.
As regards your other qvestion, it is totally impossible
for a person who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit
to not be born-again (having the indwelling holy Spirit).
Now, I'll ask you a qvestion: Do you know of this baptism?
OSAS is a false doctrine ... and therefore a person who
was "in Christ" when he/she first received the Holy Spirit
can drop out of being "in Christ" at a later point in time.
If indeed the Holy Spirit remains in this type of person
until he/she dies, this does not mean that such a person
will be going to heaven. I.E. having the indwelling Holy
Spirit does not guarantee that a person will go to heaven.
As regards your other qvestion, it is totally impossible
for a person who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit
to not be born-again (having the indwelling holy Spirit).
Now, I'll ask you a qvestion: Do you know of this baptism?
I guess I should first know where you are coming from. Rather than me presume, tell me how you believe one is saved. Is it by faith? By faith plus works? By works?
Personally I believe I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself, not of any works. How do you believe you are saved?
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