You’ve Been Catfished!

[Adonia]

My purpose in mentioning the Petrobusians was simply to show that there were 'Protestants before the Reformation,' contra to your claims. There are others I could mention. You call them heretics; I call them martyrs. We both know who killed them.

Okay, so there were protestors (heretics) before the reformation. Yes, I knew that there were small sects of them sprinkled here and there, but we are still talking of a teaching that existed for some 1100 years regardless.

'"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). In the sense that unbelievers understood Him, Christ says that the flesh profits nothing. His flesh bestows life in a different way, when it is received through the sacrament by those who have faith. Christ makes this clear by saying, "It is the Spirit who gives life." So in the sacrament, His body and blood have an effect which is spiritual in nature. The Spirit gives life, and without the Spirit's effect the sacraments feed the body but cannot feed the soul, which profits nothing. Here arises the question which many express when they say that these things do not happen symbolically but in reality. Those who say this are out of harmony with the writings of the holy fathers. Saint Augustine, the great teacher of the Church, writes in Book III of his work, On Christian Doctrine, as follows: "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, says the Saviour. and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you." Christ seems to be commanding a shameful crime [ie. cannibalism]. Therefore it is a symbol, requiring that we should faithfully remember that His flesh was crucified and wounded for us." We see that Augustine says that the sacraments of Christ's body and blood are celebrated in a symbolic sense by believers. For he says that to take Christ's flesh and blood in a fleshly sense involves crime, not religion.......
.........The Saviour and St. Paul teach us that the bread and wine placed on the altar are placed there as a symbol or memorial of the Lord's death [Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25], so that what was done in the past may be called back to memory in the present. This is the purpose of the sacrament: through being made mindful of His sufferings, we are made sharers in that divine gift by which we have been liberated from death........'

[Ratramnus, Concerning Christ's body and Blood 2:31-34, 100-101, written 831 AD]

As late as the mid-11th Century, the question of Transubstantiation was still being debated between Berengar of Tours and Lanfranc of Canterbury. If memory serves, the doctrine did not become official Roman Catholic dogma until the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.

And then we have these few quotes from the good St. Augustine from some of his sermons.

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

As for transubstantiation, it is an attempt by the Church to explain what Jesus proclaimed. It takes time to figure things out, years of study and this is what happened. The Eastern Orthodox Church which believes the same as we do concerning this issue makes no such attempt at explaining how this happens, they simply call it a mystery, but accepts that it indeed does happen as an article of faith.

 

[utilyan]

did he publish that one while he was still an RC. Sure the Pope would have approved of it.

From the wiki:
Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Christianity, but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution.

==========

From a Jewish Encyclopedia

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9753-leo-x-giovanni-de-medici
LEO X

Two hundred and twenty-fourth pope; born at Florence Dec. 11, 1475; elected March 11, 1513; died Dec. 1, 1521. His pontificate was very favorable for the Jews in general and for the Jews of Rome in particular. The latter saw in the kind treatment they received at his hands a sign of the arrival of the Messiah; and so much impressed were they with this idea that the leaders of the Roman community asked those of Jerusalem if such signs were not visible in the Holy Land. While still a cardinal, Leo showed his spirit of toleration in bestowing his favor upon two Jewish musicians, Joan Maria and Jacopo Sansecondo, especially upon the former, who subsequently received from him the title of count. Like his predecessor, Alexander VI., Leo attached to his person as physician the Jewish rabbi Bonet de Lates; and De Lates exercised such influence upon the pope that Reuchlin solicited his intervention in connection with the examination of the "Augenspiegel." Another Jew who was persona grata at the papal court was Sabbatiano Solomonis, upon whom, in acknowledgment of his services, Leo bestowed a yearly pension of 60 gold ducats.
The Jews of Rome were not the only beneficiaries of Leo's generosity. In a bull issued Sept. 8, 1514, Leo expressed his desire that the rights of the Jews should be respected, and repealed the edict of the Bishop of Carpentras, who had prescribed a special badge to be worn by the Jews of Avignon, Carpentras, and Venaissin. Of still greater importance was the bull of Nov. 1, 1519, in which the pope remitted the Jewish hearth and banking taxes, granted amnesty for all offenses committed by Jews, confirmed all the privileges and advantages granted to them by his predecessors, and prescribed that a Jewish offender should be arraigned before qualified judges and should be condemned only on evidence given by trustworthy witnesses. Leo took a livelyinterest in Jewish learning. In 1518 he authorized the establishment of a Hebrew printing-office in Rome, and in the same year granted a special privilege for the issuance of a new edition of the Talmud.

==============

Fun fact I just learned. Leo X wasn't a priest till he became Pope.

At 37 years old. Priest 2 days later bishop 2 days later Pope.



Luther was cool with Jews at first till they didn't buy his story, There is an attempt during the reformation to be more legit then the Catholic Church. For example protestant Old Testament took their canon of scripture from the official Jewish canon of scripture.

At a glance that sounds logical a definite one-up. And this is why you don't have the apocryphal books.

The problem though revealed afterwards, Is that the Jewish Canon of scripture was done around 90 AD. After Jesus died in response against Christianity.

If you look at the first version of King James you still had these books.

Example when Sadducees only believed in 5 books and they wanted to challenge Jesus, they wanted to do it vs the Pharisees too.

So when the Sadducees challenge Jesus they mock the book of Tobit, the story of a woman being married 7 times.

Point being, the Sadducees KNOW Jesus' scripture has the book of Tobit.

A chunk of scripture that gets thrown away.

Without it for example.

You don't know about the angel Raphael one of the seven angels who presents prayer petitions to God, mentioned in Revelations 8.

Like you would never know there are seven angels before God till you read revelations, but Jews knew there are seven angels before God, Raphael is one of them.

 

[Adonia]

You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Have you not read Matthew 7:21?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Praying to graven images is NOT the will of the Father:

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me (Exodus 20:3-5).

In your blindness you refuse to see what we Christians so plainly see.......... the overt hatred of God as displayed by your profane father, the Pope of Rome.

I surely hope that you do not have "any likeness that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath" because if you do you are violating this also. That means no pictures of any of your family members, friends, or fellow church members. None! Nothing! Such things are forbidden by God!

 

[Protestant]

I surely hope that you do not have "any likeness that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath" because if you do you are violating this also. That means no pictures of any of your family members, friends, or fellow church members. None! Nothing! Such things are forbidden by God!

Your tired, worn-out response to the clear, unambiguous commandment of God has been used by Catholic idolaters for years.

Have you never been taught orthodox exegesis?

Context is everything.

The context pertains to worship.

We Christians do not worship photos of our family members, nor do we pray to the dead.

We obey the commandments of God.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church who obeys the commandments of the god of this world.

Satan: Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them ?

Unholy Father: No, He has not.

A priest admonishes the Holy Father to be less physical when caressing these beloved gods.

Priest: Holy Father, please be gentle. You are being too rough. Can you not see their displeasure?

 

[utilyan]

Your tired, worn-out response to the clear, unambiguous commandment of God has been used by Catholic idolaters for years.

Have you never been taught orthodox exegesis?

Context is everything.

The context pertains to worship.

We Christians do not worship photos of our family members, nor do we pray to the dead.

We obey the commandments of God.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church who obeys the commandments of the god of this world.

Satan: Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them ?

Unholy Father: No, He has not.

A priest admonishes the Holy Father to be less physical when caressing these beloved gods.

Priest: Holy Father, please be gentle. You are being too rough. Can you not see their displeasure?

"We Christians do not worship photos of our family members, nor do we pray to the dead."

LOL. Yeah you do. Just not advanced to have it 3D yet.


Pray to the dead? That moment of death, or the funeral. You put the flowers there for the STONE or the person?



Still waiting for "protestant" to say Jesus Christ is Lord. But that would probably make him sick for week.

 

[Adonia]

There is nothing sinful about Michelangelo's "Pieta" or the Holy Family as depicted on the stained glass church window. Nothing whatsoever - they portray the glory and magnificence of God. Neither is worshipped by anyone, as the statue the Pope is holding is not worshipped either.

 

[Protestant]

................"the statue the Pope is holding is not worshipped either."

Of course it isn't. It's whatever you want it to be. Today you may want it to be a paperweight which the Pontiff has just purchased for his study. Tomorrow you may want it to be a hat rack upon which he can park his holy tiara.

 

[Adonia]

................"the statue the Pope is holding is not worshipped either."

Of course it isn't. It's whatever you want it to be. Today you may want it to be a paperweight which the Pontiff has just purchased for his study. Tomorrow you may want it to be a hat rack upon which he can park his holy tiara.

While I also find Pope Francis's statements at times confusing (quite unlike his predecessor), let me post the full statement for you. He was addressing the Pontifical Academy of the Sciences a few days ago which had gathered to discuss “Evolving Topics of Nature,”. Here is the quote.

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything — but that is not so.

He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment.

He gave autonomy to the beings of the universe at the same time at which he assured them of his continuous presence, giving being to every reality, and so creation continued for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia, until it became which we know today, precisely because God is not a demiurge or a magician, but the creator who gives being to all things.

God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life. Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve."

Father Barron of Patheos, a Catholic website explains it thusly: "He is not “a being” divine or otherwise. He is not Top Dog at the head of the gigantic list of other beings. He is Being itself". (This is straight out of St. Thomas Aquinas).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Okay, so there were protestors (heretics) before the reformation. Yes, I knew that there were small sects of them sprinkled here and there, but we are still talking of a teaching that existed for some 1100 years regardless.

Well, 2,000 years has come down with a bump to 1,100, but a false teaching is still false however old it may be.

As for the 'small sects,' you are absolutely right. I am currently doing research on the Lollards in England during the late 14th and 15th Centuries. They were like the North Korean Christians are today, despised and hated by the leadership of the nation, speaking the Gospel to others in fear and trembling, meeting in secret in twos and threes, hiding their bits of Scripture (rarely complete Bibles) because just the possession of them would lead to a horrible death if they were discovered. But God preserved them and caused them to grow in the midst of the most vicious persecution, just as He is causing His Church to grow in North Korea, Iran and other places today. 'And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.'

'But God has chosen the foolish things of this world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of this world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not to bring to nothing the things that are' (1 Corinthians 1:27-28).

 

[utilyan]

Only one church claims lineage 2000 years back to Christ.

The others just hitchhike and hijack, just don't have their own juice.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Only one church claims lineage 2000 years back to Christ.

The others just hitchhike and hijack, just don't have their own juice.

Yep! It's the Baptist church. We go all the way back to John the Baptist.

 

[Adonia]

Well, 2,000 years has come down with a bump to 1,100, but a false teaching is still false however old it may be.

As for the 'small sects,' you are absolutely right. I am currently doing research on the Lollards in England during the late 14th and 15th Centuries. They were like the North Korean Christians are today, despised and hated by the leadership of the nation, speaking the Gospel to others in fear and trembling, meeting in secret in twos and threes, hiding their bits of Scripture (rarely complete Bibles) because just the possession of them would lead to a horrible death if they were discovered. But God preserved them and caused them to grow in the midst of the most vicious persecution, just as He is causing His Church to grow in North Korea, Iran and other places today. 'And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.'

'But God has chosen the foolish things of this world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of this world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not to bring to nothing the things that are' (1 Corinthians 1:27-28).

No doubt about it, you sure are good at justifying yourself and quoting the Scriptures too - good job!

 

[Adonia]

Yep! It's the Baptist church. We go all the way back to John the Baptist.

Which one? The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem , or was it the Maranatha Baptist Church on the other side of town led by Pastor Zechariah who left the First Baptist two years earlier over doctrinal differences?

 

[utilyan]

Yep! It's the Baptist church. We go all the way back to John the Baptist.

LOL its like even you know its a joke.

 

[utilyan]

Which one? The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem , or was it the Maranatha Baptist Church on the other side of town led by Pastor Zechariah who left the First Baptist two years earlier over doctrinal differences?

No its Martin's uncle buck's idependant calvinisit/cyborg/feministonly/wesboro Baptist church. "God hates robots." motto

 

[Protestant]

Adonia said, "I also find Pope Francis's statements at times confusing."
-----------------------------
Confusing? I prefer the term 'damning.'

Here is the Gospel Pope Francis preached on May 22, 2013:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!............ ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This false Gospel contains the following lies as preached by the unholy Father of lies:

Lie # 1. All mankind are redeemed by Christ.

The Word of God says otherwise:

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28).

Lie # 2. If all have been redeemed, then all sins have been paid in full.

Therefore, all will be saved.

The Word of God says otherwise:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

Lie # 3. Even unbelieving atheists will be saved.

The Word of God says otherwise:

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:7-8).

Lie # 4. All people, no matter their religion, are by default, children of God.

The Word of God says otherwise:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1:12).

Lie # 5. All people need do is to ‘do good’ and we will all meet in the bye and bye.

The Word of God says otherwise:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Which one? The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem , or was it the Maranatha Baptist Church on the other side of town led by Pastor Zechariah who left the First Baptist two years earlier over doctrinal differences?

Well it certainly isn't the First Roman Catholic Church of Jerusalem that tortures and burns anybody who tries to leave.

 

[utilyan]

Adonia said, "I also find Pope Francis's statements at times confusing."
-----------------------------
Confusing? I prefer the term 'damning.'

Here is the Gospel Pope Francis preached on May 22, 2013:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!............ ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This false Gospel contains the following lies as preached by the unholy Father of lies:

Lie # 1. All mankind are redeemed by Christ.

The Word of God says otherwise:

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28).

Lie # 2. If all have been redeemed, then all sins have been paid in full.

Therefore, all will be saved.

The Word of God says otherwise:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

Lie # 3. Even unbelieving atheists will be saved.

The Word of God says otherwise:

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:7-8).

Lie # 4. All people, no matter their religion, are by default, children of God.

The Word of God says otherwise:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1:12).

Lie # 5. All people need do is to ‘do good’ and we will all meet in the bye and bye.

The Word of God says otherwise:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:21-23).

Your faith won't declare Jesus Christ is Lord, Because it would against its satanic principles.

 

[Protestant]

Adonia said, "Okay, so there were protestors (heretics) before the reformation. Yes, I knew that there were small sects of them sprinkled here and there, but we are still talking of a teaching that existed for some 1100 years regardless.“

---------------------------

Once again, you have neglected to fact check before making a fool of yourself.

Over the centuries Protestant theologians have compiled the theological, prophetic and historical writings of those in authority, who are acknowledged scholars, historians and ordained spiritual leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.

Many such Catholic commentaries were translated from their primary Latin sources by Peter Allix, D.D. He was originally a Huguenot pastor who later found refuge in London.

His work, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont and of the Albigenses, was originally published in 1690.

His purpose in translating official Roman Catholic documents was to prove the existence of Protestant doctrines in churches in both Italy and France through the centuries. These would include not only orthodox Roman Catholic churches, but also those congregations who were considered ‘heretics’ by the Roman authorities.

Claudius, Bishop of Turin, from A.D. 817-827, is considered one of the many forerunners of the Protestant Reformers. As such, many of his peers considered him a heretic.

Some 17 years prior to the writings of Paschasius Radbertus, (who attempted to make the case for Transubstantiation), Claudius wrote his own treatise on the Lord’s Supper which was very much in line with the Protestant symbolic teaching.

The following quote is found in Allix, pg. 71, where he cites Claudius’ commentary on Matthew:

“The bread represents to us his mystical body, and the wine is the symbol of his blood.”

The entire translated commentary on the Lord’s Supper takes several pages.

Allix also includes the original Latin passages to prove no unauthorized changes have taken place.

Needless to say, the congregations which were always outside the authority of Rome never believed or taught the lie of Transubstantiation.

So much for the lie that all professing Christians believed the doctrine of Transubstantiation for 1100 years.

 

[utilyan]

Adonia said, "Okay, so there were protestors (heretics) before the reformation. Yes, I knew that there were small sects of them sprinkled here and there, but we are still talking of a teaching that existed for some 1100 years regardless.“

---------------------------

Once again, you have neglected to fact check before making a fool of yourself.

Over the centuries Protestant theologians have compiled the theological, prophetic and historical writings of those in authority, who are acknowledged scholars, historians and ordained spiritual leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.

Many such Catholic commentaries were translated from their primary Latin sources by Peter Allix, D.D. He was originally a Huguenot pastor who later found refuge in London.

His work, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont and of the Albigenses, was originally published in 1690.

His purpose in translating official Roman Catholic documents was to prove the existence of Protestant doctrines in churches in both Italy and France through the centuries. These would include not only orthodox Roman Catholic churches, but also those congregations who were considered ‘heretics’ by the Roman authorities.

Claudius, Bishop of Turin, from A.D. 817-827, is considered one of the many forerunners of the Protestant Reformers. As such, many of his peers considered him a heretic.

Some 17 years prior to the writings of Paschasius Radbertus, (who attempted to make the case for Transubstantiation), Claudius wrote his own treatise on the Lord’s Supper which was very much in line with the Protestant symbolic teaching.

The following quote is found in Allix, pg. 71, where he cites Claudius’ commentary on Matthew:

“The bread represents to us his mystical body, and the wine is the symbol of his blood.”

The entire translated commentary on the Lord’s Supper takes several pages.

Allix also includes the original Latin passages to prove no unauthorized changes have taken place.

Needless to say, the congregations which were always outside the authority of Rome never believed or taught the lie of Transubstantiation.

So much for the lie that all professing Christians believed the doctrine of Transubstantiation for 1100 years.

Claudius of Turin (or Claude) (fl. 810–827)[1][2] was the Catholic bishop of Turin from 817 until his death. ---Wikipedia.

Your own source says he's catholic. Nothing about a predecessor or successor teaching his ideas.


Its funny how you rely so much on accusation, but then you can't declare Jesus Christ is Lord.

What's up with that? No Christian has trouble or pause declaring Jesus Christ is Lord.

You've been choking for days.