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You just don't UNDERSTAND!

Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I see this accusation from both side of discussions, but isn't there a clear distinction in someone who doesn't understand a truth and someone who understands but rejects it?

The same point can be made regarding ones understanding of the gospel. Some argue that only the elect can understand the gospel, but what is meant by that exactly?

Does that mean they really can't understand the clear words of the gospel appeal, or does it mean they just can't willingly follow once they do understand it?

Please expound.
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Skandelon said:
I hear see this accusation from both side of discussions, but isn't there a clear distinction in someone who doesn't understand a truth and someone who understands but rejects it?

The same point can be made regarding ones understanding of the gospel. Some argue that only the elect can understand the gospel, but what is meant by that exactly?

Does that mean they really can't understand the clear words of the gospel appeal, or does it mean they just can't willingly follow once they do understand it?

Please expound.
Click to expand...

Sorry Scan but this feels like Déjà Vu. Think I will pass & go read a book.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
It is impossible to know what others understand, but I easily understood it as a child and accepted Christ. I can't see what is so difficult to understand.

I think the greatest difficulty is accepting the fact that we are sinners worthy of death. Most people believe themselves to be good. They think of the murderer or bank robber as being evil. If they are an honest citizen who tries to do well, it is difficult to accept they are evil.

And then there is another group who do not want it to be true. They understand it and realize if they accept Christ they are expected to turn from sin. They love their sin and are unwilling to turn from it.

But the gospel is simple, statistics prove that a majority of persons accept Christ at a very young age.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Earth said:
Yea I was 53. LOL
Click to expand...

The Barna Research Group has conducted numerous polls on this over the years. According to them, children 5-13 years old have a 32% probability of accepting Christ. The numbers drop dramatically at this age, the probability for young people from 14-18 years old is only 4%, and for adults 19-Death the probability is only 6%.

Some have quoted figures as high as 90% of all Christians accepted Christ by age 19, the Barna Group says this figure is closer to 60%.

But all studies show the vast majority of persons who accept Christ do so at a very young age.

So, it can't be that lack of understanding the gospel is what prevents folks from accepting Christ.
 
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A

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Winman said:
But the gospel is simple, statistics prove that a majority of persons accept Christ at a very young age.
Click to expand...

Could you show these statistics? Because I know that is not at all the case in any church I've attended.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
annsni said:
Could you show these statistics? Because I know that is not at all the case in any church I've attended.
Click to expand...

Ann, I am on a mobile phone and can't copy and paste.

Search "Barna age people accept Christ" without quotes and you will find many articles showing these statistics.
 
Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Good stats and all, but none of this really addresses the question of the OP.

1. Do we all acknowledge the difference in someone who (1) doesn't understand truth and someone who (2) understands but rejects the truth?

2. When Calvinists speak of the inability to understand the gospel, are they speaking of the first or second person?

Please explain.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Skandelon said:
I see this accusation from both side of discussions, but isn't there a clear distinction in someone who doesn't understand a truth and someone who understands but rejects it?
Click to expand...

Indeed there is, as one can be "ignorant" to what the Bible teaches on a subject, disregard to what it actually teaches, or else have a different interpretation on what is being taught...
Think that a lot of this question hinges on how one understands the nature of the Fall of man thruAdam...

if you hold to doctrine of original Sin, we have a sin nature, and that the Fall so 'destroyed" image of God in us as due to that...
One tends to be a Calvinist
if you tend to see it as being that the fall "marred" us, no sin nature, still have free will, that God has granted to all men a "measure" of grace/faith to believ, tends to be an Arm...

So basically different starting points, so different interpretations at times from same verses!

The same point can be made regarding ones understanding of the gospel. Some argue that only the elect can understand the gospel, but what is meant by that exactly?
Click to expand...
that unless the Holy spirit does His work to convict of Sin, need to have a Saviour, and that He allows one to become quickened to receive Gospel, repent receive believe, they will stay dead in sins and trespasses..

Not saying the "natural" Fleshy person cannot gear the Gospel, its just that without the Lord revealing it to them, and by His act of grace "openning" them up to be able to receive it and respond to it, will just stay words to them, they will not turn and be saved...

Does that mean they really can't understand the clear words of the gospel appeal, or does it mean they just can't willingly follow once they do understand it?
Click to expand...
they will be able to understand in sense that the devel and demons know there is a god, jesus is His Son, but will not able to receive Him as that, as their natural sinful nature will not submit to the truth in the Gospel...
Willfully choose to stay in darkness, as will read and understand, but refuse to heed and obey w/o God directly acting to allow them to do such...

Please expound.
Click to expand...

its not that people cannot hear/read/understand the Bible, its just that the sinner cannot apply it to their lives UNLESS there is a direct work/act by God to allow them to believe, as their natural selves cannot receive the things of God,as they are spiritually discerned...
 
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Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
JesusFan said:
Indeed there is, as one can be "ignorant" to what the Bible teaches on a subject, disregard to what it actually teaches, or else have a different interpretation on what is being taught...
Think that a lot of this question hinges on how one understands the nature of the Fall of man thruAdam...

if you hold to doctrine of original Sin, we have a sin nature, and that the Fall so 'destroyed" image of God in us as due to that...
One tends to be a Calvinist
if you tend to see it as being that the fall "marred" us, no sin nature, still have free will, that God has granted to all men a "measure" of grace/faith to believ, tends to be an Arm...

So basically different starting points, so different interpretations at times from same verses!
Click to expand...
But someone can be a Arminian and truly understand the Calvinistic interpretation of a verse, but choose to reject it (and vise versa), right?

In the same manner, can a heathen understand the gospel's appeal but reject it? If so, why do some Calvinists claim that the unregenerate can't even understand the gospel?


that unless the Holy spirit does His work to convict of Sin, need to have a Saviour, and that He allows one to become quickened to receive Gospel, repent receive believe, they will stay dead in sins and trespasses..
Click to expand...
And does that mean they can't even understand the gospel or not?

Not saying the "natural" Fleshy person cannot gear the Gospel, its just that without the Lord revealing it to them, and by His act of grace "openning" them up to be able to receive it and respond to it, will just stay words to them, they will not turn and be saved...

they will be able to understand in sense that the devel and demons know there is a god, jesus is His Son, but will not able to receive Him as that, as their natural sinful nature will not submit to the truth in the Gospel...
Click to expand...
So, they can understand the gospel, but not be 'able to receive Him' or "submit to the truth?" Is that correct?

I'm just trying to understand the clear distinction in 'not understanding' and 'understanding but rejecting,' within the Calvinistic model.

its not that people cannot hear/read/understand the Bible, its just that the sinner cannot apply it to their lives UNLESS there is a direct work/act by God to allow them to believe, as their natural selves cannot receive the things of God,as they are spiritually discerned...
Click to expand...
So what do Calvinists mean when they say lost men can't understand the gospel? From what you have said here, they can understand it, but just can't apply/submit, right?

So, why do Cals us 1 Cor 2:14 with regard to what the lost can and can't understand, if you affirm they can understand it but just not submit to it?
 
B

Bob Alkire

New Member
Winman said:
The Barna Research Group has conducted numerous polls on this over the years. According to them, children 5-13 years old have a 32% probability of accepting Christ. The numbers drop dramatically at this age, the probability for young people from 14-18 years old is only 4%, and for adults 19-Death the probability is only 6%.

Some have quoted figures as high as 90% of all Christians accepted Christ by age 19, the Barna Group says this figure is closer to 60%.

But all studies show the vast majority of persons who accept Christ do so at a very young age.

So, it can't be that lack of understanding the gospel is what prevents folks from accepting Christ.
Click to expand...

I find the Barna Group's study to be quite accurate, in the past and today.
In one of the groups that I serve in, we are between 60 to 85 years old, all but two had accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior before the age of 12.
If parents are active Christians their children have a good chance of coming to salvation at a much younger age than most kids who aren't raised in a Christian home. They are taught more about the Bible and Christ.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
skan,

But someone can be a Arminian and truly understand the Calvinistic interpretation of a verse, but choose to reject it (and vise versa), right?
Click to expand...

I do not think so. If they truly understood it they would embrace it.
The fact that even in this forum I have never [that I can recall] seen a non cal present any commentary that is not a caricature of the calvinistic teaching.

A person does not face themselves in the mirror and say...I am going to believe error today.

You say that a person can understand and reject it.
I would say that in every case,being truth can only be welcomed by the Holy Spirit allowing a born again person to welcome it......The person rejecting the truth is rejecting a wrong idea of what the truth is.

The other day you posted that truth can be understood apart from the work of the Spirit....no calvinist believes that. This I believe is an additional area where you might struggle mightly against D.O.G.

This thread has value,and I will try to draw out more ideas later,,busy today.
 
S

sag38

Active Member
Iconoclast, post #18 [edit - personal attacks are not permitted]
 
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J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Skandelon said:
But someone can be a Arminian and truly understand the Calvinistic interpretation of a verse, but choose to reject it (and vise versa), right?

yes, as we both are saved by the SAME Gospel unto Eternal life...
Can agree to disagree on how to interprete the verses around just HOW God applies the atonement to those who are saved, but we both are still saved same way... Through faith alone, grace alone in the Lord Jesus Christ....
I do NOT hold that unless one embraces Cal they cannot really be a true Christian...

In the same manner, can a heathen understand the gospel's appeal but reject it? If so, why do some Calvinists claim that the unregenerate can't even understand the gospel?

That is because those not chosen in Christ, Elected by God, cannot "respond" to it because they do not have 'ears to hear"
Just like when Jesus spoke in His parables... All "heard" the story, but ONLY those who God allowed to "hear" could receive the true message, rest stayed "deaf"

And does that mean they can't even understand the gospel or not?
Can understand it in the sense Satan can, but cannot respond by repenting believing receiving it.

So, they can understand the gospel, but not be 'able to receive Him' or "submit to the truth?" Is that correct?

Understand the Gospel iin the sense that they would know Jesus claims to be Son of God, died for their sins etc BUT would not have interest/desire/ nor means to respond unless God works it in for them , be like the Pharisees... Heard and saw Jesus, but chose to stay in the dark and reject His claims...
I'm just trying to understand the clear distinction in 'not understanding' and 'understanding but rejecting,' within the Calvinistic model.


So what do Calvinists mean when they say lost men can't understand the gospel? From what you have said here, they can understand it, but just can't apply/submit, right?

Understand it from the head knowledge, unable to get "heart " knowledge

So, why do Cals us 1 Cor 2:14 with regard to what the lost can and can't understand, if you affirm they can understand it but just not submit to it?
Click to expand...

Please refresh what verse says please?
 
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