You just don't UNDERSTAND!

[thomas15]

I do not think so. If they truly understood it they would embrace it.
The fact that even in this forum I have never [that I can recall] seen a non cal present any commentary that is not a caricature of the calvinistic teaching.

As long as this is your opinion then great. By way of example, I personally have nothing to prove to anyone but it is as far as I'm concerned one of the negatives for me, as I study and interact with reformed thinkers is that they feel certain that the only reason why everyone else doesn't think like them is because they truly don't understand reformed theology.

Of course if true, that would beg the question, "do all reformed thinkers/believers understand reformed theology?"

 

[Skandelon]

I do not think so. If they truly understood it they would embrace it.

So, by that logic then I could properly deduce that you don't really understand "Arminian" truth, right?

The fact that even in this forum I have never [that I can recall] seen a non cal present any commentary that is not a caricature of the calvinistic teaching.

What about scholars outside this forum? None of them really understand you, uh? Why not, do you suppose?

You say that a person can understand and reject it.
I would say that in every case,being truth can only be welcomed by the Holy Spirit allowing a born again person to welcome it......The person rejecting the truth is rejecting a wrong idea of what the truth is.

Where does the scripture teach this? Romans 1 teaches the knew and understood the divine nature and eternal qualities of God and it was for this very reason that their rejection of God made them "without excuse."

The other day you posted that truth can be understood apart from the work of the Spirit....no calvinist believes that.

I NEVER said that. If you will go back to that post you will see what I actually said. I challenge you to copy and paste it here in its entirety and in doing so, stop and read it. You will see that I believe the HS works through means (preaching, scripture, church) to bring understanding and that scripture never reveals that the HS simply turns on some kind of an internal light switch to make someone understand something they didn't understand before.

 

[humblethinker]

I would say that in every case,being truth can only be welcomed by the Holy Spirit allowing a born again person to welcome it......The person rejecting the truth is rejecting a wrong idea of what the truth is..

Can you clarify what kind of truth you are referring to? Would you consider understanding self evident truth to be only illumined by the HS? That is,can the man without the HS understand that 2+2=4? And also that the basic truth premises of logic are understandable without the HS? I assume that you are referring only to truth that is taught in scripture, correct?

 

[Winman]

You will see that I believe the HS works through means (preaching, scripture, church) to bring understanding and that scripture never reveals that the HS simply turns on some kind of an internal light switch to make someone understand something they didn't understand before.

Yes Skan, unsaved people can understand truth revealed by the scriptures, whether they are willing to believe it is another matter.

I'd bet if you were to show 100 unsaved adults the scripture that says, FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, and asked them if they understand what this verse is saying, nearly all, if not all would say they understand it.

However, if you asked those same adults if they believe this verse of scripture is true, then you would get a very different answer. Many would
deny they are sinners worthy of hell, and would claim they are good enough to earn salvation. I have experienced this many times going door to door with my pastor.

It is not that they cannot understand what the scriptures say and mean, it is that they are unwilling to accept it as truth.

Ask any evolutionist if they understand the creation account in Genesis. They understand it, but consider it myth and do not believe it.

The problem is not lack of understanding, it is lack of faith.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes Skan, unsaved people can understand truth revealed by the scriptures, whether they are willing to believe it is another matter.

I'd bet if you were to show 100 unsaved adults the scripture that says, FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, and asked them if they understand what this verse is saying, nearly all, if not all would say they understand it.

However, if you asked those same adults if they believe this verse of scripture is true, then you would get a very different answer. Many would
deny they are sinners worthy of hell, and would claim they are good enough to earn salvation. I have experienced this many times going door to door with my pastor.

It is not that they cannot understand what the scriptures say and mean, it is that they are unwilling to accept it as truth.

Ask any evolutionist if they understand the creation account in Genesis. They understand it, but consider it myth and do not believe it.

The problem is not lack of understanding, it is lack of faith.

I agree. There is also those who would understand it and even accept that it is true, but choose to reject Christ because the cost is too high for them, right?

Didn't Jesus call his followers to "consider the costs?" Is that only a cost for believers to consider, or is it a cost for those who have yet decided whether or not to follow Him?

 

[Winman]

I agree. There is also those who would understand it and even accept that it is true, but choose to reject Christ because the cost is too high for them, right?

Didn't Jesus call his followers to "consider the costs?" Is that only a cost for believers to consider, or is it a cost for those who have yet decided whether or not to follow Him?

Exactly. There is the testimony of thousands of Christians, some on this forum who say they resisted accepting Christ, sometimes for years, and the #1 reason is that they did not want to give up some sin in their life.

They understood they were sinners, they understood the wages of sin was death, they understood Jesus died for their sins and rose again. They understood they could have forgiveness by trusting Christ. But they were unwilling to give up their sin.

This is the primary reason people do not get saved.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree. There is also those who would understand it and even accept that it is true, but choose to reject Christ because the cost is too high for them, right?

not those who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, and have been granted by God "godly repentence"
Again, the question is not will they reject what they know is "the truth" its are they even able to know that thewy are lost and away from God UNLESS the Lord intervenes to save them?

Its like this...
If I was blind from birth, could I even "know" what color Red/Blue means?
If I am in a sinful state, can I even "know" what Jesus did on my behalf?

W/o Grace of God that he applies. mankind knows enough from general revelation in Creation that God exists, and all religions are the best that unsaved man can produce...

ONLY those whose heart/mind God has openned up to receive special revelation of the Gospel and Bible can come to God....


Didn't Jesus call his followers to "consider the costs?" Is that only a cost for believers to consider, or is it a cost for those who have yet decided whether or not to follow Him?

Think that we have to remember that there is a part of man that always wants to somehow "help" God out, get the credit to have "come to God" but the Lord says that He will share His glory with None, and salvation is of the Lord!

 

[Winman]

Think that we have to remember that there is a part of man that always wants to somehow "help" God out, get the credit to have "come to God" but the Lord says that He will share His glory with None, and salvation is of the Lord!

You better come to Jesus, or you will not have life.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[Skandelon]

Think that we have to remember that there is a part of man that always wants to somehow "help" God out, get the credit to have "come to God" but the Lord says that He will share His glory with None, and salvation is of the Lord!

This statement is a straw-man fallacy because it presumes that our view requires God needs help rather than what we actually believe, which is that God, in his sovereign will and for his own holy purposes, chooses to give man the ability to respond.

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly. There is the testimony of thousands of Christians, some on this forum who say they resisted accepting Christ, sometimes for years, and the #1 reason is that they did not want to give up some sin in their life.

They understood they were sinners, they understood the wages of sin was death, they understood Jesus died for their sins and rose again. They understood they could have forgiveness by trusting Christ. But they were unwilling to give up their sin.

This is the primary reason people do not get saved.

main reason is that natural man CANNOT receive the things of God, for they are spiritual discerned...

So agree with your premise except goes back i extra step...

Why cant they get saved? because they cant unless the Lord draws/calls/elects them to come to Jesus, and receive Eternal life...

They are doing their "natural desires" w/o that work of God, preferring to stay in darkness than come to the Light...

 

[Winman]

Think that we have to remember that there is a part of man that always wants to somehow "help" God out, get the credit to have "come to God" but the Lord says that He will share His glory with None, and salvation is of the Lord!

If you don't come to Jesus, you will not have life.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[Skandelon]

Exactly. There is the testimony of thousands of Christians, some on this forum who say they resisted accepting Christ, sometimes for years, and the #1 reason is that they did not want to give up some sin in their life.

They understood they were sinners, they understood the wages of sin was death, they understood Jesus died for their sins and rose again. They understood they could have forgiveness by trusting Christ. But they were unwilling to give up their sin.

This is the primary reason people do not get saved.

And it also would explain why it would be more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom. A factor that would make no difference in the Calvinistic worldview. If elected before doing anything good or bad (before becoming rich) then whether they have wealth wouldn't in any way affect the "irresistible call" and their subsequent faith and repentance. It was be the same difficulty for them as anyone else in that system.

The reason it is difficult for a rich man is because of the cost, as evidenced in the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

 

[Skandelon]

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Are you sure you quoted that verse properly, Winman? Are you sure it doesn't say, "And ye were not made alive, that ye would come to me?" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

This statement is a straw-man fallacy because it presumes that our view requires God needs help rather than what we actually believe, which is that God, in his sovereign will and for his own holy purposes, chooses to give man the ability to respond.

Yes, it is nonsense, Jesus COMMANDS us to come to him, and says those who will not come to him will not have life.

Not to come to Jesus is to disobey him.

 

[Winman]

Are you sure you quoted that verse properly, Winman? Are you sure it doesn't say, "And ye were not made alive, that ye would come to me?" :smilewinkgrin:

That is the Calvinist understanding isn't it?

I have been saying for two years that Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, it is nonsense, Jesus COMMANDS us to come to him, and says those who will not come to him will not have life.

Not to come to Jesus is to disobey him.

If you are one of the elect of God, you will be able to respond in faith and believe/receive the Lord Jesus Christ...

Comes back to this...
Does God granr "general" grace so that all could receive/believe, or does it apply it to His elect only?

And I don't see how disobeying Jesus command to come to Him factors in here...

Didn't he plainly tell us that a vast majority will go down thre broad road to destruction, and thus "disobeying Him?"

 

[mandym]

This statement is a straw-man fallacy because it presumes that our view requires God needs help rather than what we actually believe, which is that God, in his sovereign will and for his own holy purposes, chooses to give man the ability to respond.

It is not a strawman. That implies a dishonest distortion. It is because Calvinists to not understand the biblical explanation. They are blinded from the truth by their false Calvinist teaching. If they did understand it correctly they would embrace it.

 

[Winman]

If you are one of the elect of God, you will be able to respond in faith and believe/receive the Lord Jesus Christ...

Comes back to this...
Does God granr "general" grace so that all could receive/believe, or does it apply it to His elect only?

And I don't see how disobeying Jesus command to come to Him factors in here...

Didn't he plainly tell us that a vast majority will go down thre broad road to destruction, and thus "disobeying Him?"

They never came to him, that is why he said I NEVER KNEW YOU.

And as far as grace, the scriptures say;

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God THAT BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to all men.

God doesn't show a general grace to some men, and an effectual grace to others, that is a man-made doctrine. God shows the grace THAT BRINGETH SALVATION to ALL MEN.

 

[Winman]

Back to the OP, I have had discussions with unbelievers concerning evolution many times. The ones who are knowledgeable of the theory of evolution know the creation account very well, and usually present what they believe are logical and scientific arguments against it.

So, in this case it is not that they do not understand the scriptures, they know them very well. But in most cases their minds have been blinded by modern science. They consider the creation account to be a superstitious myth created by ancient men who had no knowledge of science. But they understand perfectly that I believe God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

if you hold to doctrine of original Sin, we have a sin nature, and that the Fall so 'destroyed" image of God in us as due to that...
One tends to be a Calvinist

Here is where I just stop dead & read with amazement... "If you hold to the doctrine of original Sin" . How can you question that? Thats the fall of man! * Adam willfully transgressed the law of God and therefore plunged himself and his posterity into a state of guilt and corruption (Rom. 5 : 12-19) .That now man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2: 1) and is unable to recover himself by an act of his own "free-will" (John 1: 13; John 6: 44; Rom. 3: 10-20; Rom.9: 16). To put it simply, the essential teaching of the doctrine of total depravity is this: Human beings have no spiritual life—sin has killed them. We are all dead spiritually and will eventually die physically.

This doctrine has been upheld by many very intelligent people over many years. But here you are telling me "IF" All the flags go flying in the air. Then when I take a look at my own testimony, it just rings clear & cements it. For me there is no "If". Im convinced.