You just don't UNDERSTAND!

[JesusFan]

Yeah, how does a corpse (as the Calvinists like to describe the natural man) respond well and then get choked out?

I can't help of the Monty Python movie's quote, "I'm not dead yet!" :laugh:

Could be that those where "discisples" of the Lord are those who do much in way of good works/service on his behalf...

Ones "chocked out" are those who cannot decide to serve God whole hearted, are double minded, saved, but deciding to "straddle' the fence between serving God regardless of the cost, and deciding to "play it safe" as Jesus to resque from the Fire, but not wanting him to be staying over in the house!

 

[Zenas]

Iconoclast, you seem to be saying that if you understand something you must believe it. “If they truly understood it they would embrace it.” I have a degree in biology and understand the theory of evolution as well as anyone but I reject it. So what you’re actually saying is that if you really understood Calvinism you would have to embrace it because you would recognize it is true. Therefore, only Calvinists understand the truth, or have “true knowledge” as you put it. Sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me.

I realize I have just interjected a little snark into the discussion but it is frustrating the way Calvinists spread their doctrine with such evangelical zeal. Shouldn’t we save evangelical zeal for spreading the gospel?

 

[JesusFan]

Iconoclast, you seem to be saying that if you understand something you must believe it. “If they truly understood it they would embrace it.” I have a degree in biology and understand the theory of evolution as well as anyone but I reject it. So what you’re actually saying is that if you really understood Calvinism you would have to embrace it because you would recognize it is true. Therefore, only Calvinists understand the truth, or have “true knowledge” as you put it. Sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me.

I realize I have just interjected a little snark into the discussion but it is frustrating the way Calvinists spread their doctrine with such evangelical zeal. Shouldn’t we save evangelical zeal for spreading the gospel?

just wondering how the Church "made it" all those years with NEITHER the theological systems of calvinism/arminianism to allow them to "understand" the Bible?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Therefore, only Calvinists understand the truth, or have “true knowledge” as you put it. Sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me.

Actually that sounds like Catholicism. Thats what they teach & preach.:tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

just wondering how the Church "made it" all those years with NEITHER the theological systems of calvinism/arminianism to allow them to "understand" the Bible?

Well they were gravitating toward Pelagius views...Augustine helped pull them back from that heresy

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I realize I have just interjected a little snark into the discussion but it is frustrating the way Calvinists spread their doctrine with such evangelical zeal. Shouldn’t we save evangelical zeal for spreading the gospel?

Z.... dont you have to crush the heathen, evil, & generally not nice :smilewinkgrin:Calvinist before you can do that?:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you seem to be saying that if you understand something you must believe it. “If they truly understood it they would embrace it.” I have a degree in biology and understand the theory of evolution as well as anyone but I reject it. So what you’re actually saying is that if you really understood Calvinism you would have to embrace it because you would recognize it is true. Therefore, only Calvinists understand the truth, or have “true knowledge” as you put it. Sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me.

I realize I have just interjected a little snark into the discussion but it is frustrating the way Calvinists spread their doctrine with such evangelical zeal. Shouldn’t we save evangelical zeal for spreading the gospel?

Hello Zenas,
Zenas...I do not mean this in a gnostic sense.

Iconoclast, you seem to be saying that if you understand something you must believe it. “If they truly understood it they would embrace it.”

One time a millionaire told me....you do not know, what you do not know.

When time after time people mis-represent the teaching of the grace of God,make caricatures,strawmen etc....it shows that either they do not have a grasp on it....or they are delibrately being perverse and showing themselves to be enemies of the cross of Christ.
If they knew the teaching well enough, by God given understanding they would embrace it. They would have been given a new heart to enable them to receive the truth of God.
Does that mean that a new born christian ,or any christian is than an infallible interpreter of scripture......NO.
What happens....
1] some are slow to develop proper study habits,meditation on the law of God.......some even deny the law has any part in a christians life!2] some fail to humble themselves before God....putting God and his glory first....as long as a proud spirit exists they will not grow much in grace.
[usually these same persons accuse others of the very thing that is true of themselves.....under the guise of look at me ,I am so meek and humble.Let me tell you how I correctly deal with controversy...not like the rude calvinists do.....this accusation itself is rude!

3] some have believed by grace, but sit for years under a man who resists truth....and never feed the flock the truth. They spend a long time trying to serve God....with only a part of the scriptures....like a crippled battleship still trying to fight ,but without the full arsenal that could be used.
thankfully God is sovereign,and His word does accomplish it"s ordained purpose. A chain saw will cut a tree even if you do not start the motor, but it works much better if you start it and use it the way it is meant to used.

4]some study themselves into part of the truth...and do enter what was recently posted by mandy about the cage stage this will slow growth until they move past it. it takes time and growth, plus mistakes , to grow in grace and knowledge...and wisdom to match the truth.

5] some eager to learn and with a sincere motive have grasped onto a system that has defects....but they never test it,against other views seeking out the best of these views.....remember...you sow what you reap.
dispensationalism does much damage here, but that is a seperate thread.

6] some are not inclined to any kind of conflict or contending for truth, so if there is a bump in the theological road, they put up a white flag and say things like.....I only follow Jesus, theology does not matter, doctrine divides,
and instead of honestly seeking things out...they divert to other things

7] some are naturally given to strife and division,they are just oppositional without any scriptural warrant.....so they for example just post...I do not like calvinism, I do not like election, predestination, theological language,
How much truth do you think this person is going to wind up with?
They are like the man who hides his talent under a basket, rather than growing and serving to the full ability and gift.

8] some are not yet saved.but are trying to be christians....in the flesh, without the Spirit.....they will have trouble almost at all times having a correct view on any bible truth. [if they have some truth it is something a real christian said and they just repeat it]
They might later on become saved. or they can continue on in their lies and religious activities...and then perish.
Zenas....we are taught do not make unrighteousness judgements, and we cannot see a persons heart. Only God can do that, but think it out for a second.....if you have alot of these people in a church, or a message board....and they are devoid of understanding...it makes for contention and arguements rather than substantial spiritual discussions and growth!
Jesus said there would be many like this.
9] some profess to believe calvinistic doctrine....but may be void of the Spirit,and so they might have some mental understanding, that yet lacks the grace of God. Some have said things like.....I used to be a calvinist
What they are really saying is....The church I was in believed in calvinism as a system...I was exposed to it somewhat...but in reality I never really grasped it internally, in my heart and soul..so I now say I used to be a calvinist!

Inability to welcome Divine truth is a mark of false professors.
What do you think Zenas? I could do much more on this but you get the idea.

 

[JesusFan]

Well they were gravitating toward Pelagius views...Augustine helped pull them back from that heresy

That woud be basically ANY "religion" today, even in "Christianity" that would deny necessity of the Cross of Christ for salvation?

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you clarify what kind of truth you are referring to? Would you consider understanding self evident truth to be only illumined by the HS? That is,can the man without the HS understand that 2+2=4? And also that the basic truth premises of logic are understandable without the HS? I assume that you are referring only to truth that is taught in scripture, correct?[/QUOTE]

That is correct HT.
like it says here

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thomas 15-you asked

Of course if true, that would beg the question, "do all reformed thinkers/believers understand reformed theology?"

With every area of doctrine, believers are at different stages of maturity, from new born babes ,to old mature saints,and everything in between.
One advantage within the reformed tents is that they use confessions of faith, that they are mostly in agreement with...so you know where they stand before you join in.
The 1689 for baptists
the 1644 for padeos

 

[Zenas]

What happens....
1] some are slow to develop proper study habits,meditation on the law of God.......

This is an example of your pride and arrogance. I have never encountered an ignorant Calvinist, but you need to realize that you are not the only people who have an intimate knowledge of God and His word. There are many Godly people from various faiths whose understanding of scripture is equal or superior to yours (and by “yours” I mean Calvinists in general).

2] ????

Iconoclast didn't include a No. 2 so I will use this one to say that people aren't a bunch of robots doing what they are predestined to do. Following Christ is a decision that is freely made, or not, and based mostly on some level of intellectual understanding rather than feelings. God gave us a mind and an intellect, therefore He expects us to use it. Can you say C. S. Lewis?

I have noticed that 100% of Calvinists believe they are part of the elect. Is this a correct observation on my part, or are there some who, after becoming immersed in the system, recognize that God did not call them out of darkness and that they are not part of the elect after all?

3] some have believed by grace, but sit for years under a man who resists truth....and never feed the flock the truth. They spend a long time trying to serve God....with only a part of the scriptures....

“Sit for years under a man who resists truth”? You’ve got to be kidding. I think you greatly overestimate the influence of pastors and you seriously underestimate the effectiveness of of a congregation acting out of obedience to God of their own free will.

4]some study themselves into part of the truth...and do enter what was recently posted by mandy about the cage stage this will slow growth until they move past it. it takes time and growth, plus mistakes , to grow in grace and knowledge...and wisdom to match the truth.

This is something many Christians of all schools, including Calvinism, have in common.

5] some eager to learn and with a sincere motive have grasped onto a system that has defects....but they never test it,against other views seeking out the best of these views.....

Agreed, completely. And this includes Calvinists who never consider the possibility that they may be wrong on some things.

6] some are not inclined to any kind of conflict or contending for truth, so if there is a bump in the theological road, they put up a white flag and say things like.....I only follow Jesus, theology does not matter, doctrine divides .....

This is basically an admission that your evangelical fervor frequently morphs into combativeness. This is not true for all but for far too many it is.

7] some are naturally given to strife and division,they are just oppositional without any scriptural warrant.....so they for example just post...I do not like calvinism, I do not like election, predestination, theological language .....

You’ve got me there. This is true. Of course the only reason we have strife and division is because Calvinists want to impose their views on others. We have no Calvinists in our church, at least none that I know of. And guess what? The topics of election, predestination, etc. never come up. We don’t sit around and bash Calvinists. It’s not a taboo topic, it’s just something no one is interested in.

8] some are not yet saved.but are trying to be christians....in the flesh, without the Spirit.....they will have trouble almost at all times having a correct view on any bible truth. [if they have some truth it is something a real christian said and they just repeat it]

So you have to have understanding of doctrine to be saved? I guess that pretty much rules out all who can’t read or write.

And what is a correct view of Bible truth? How do you know you’re more correct than the Methodists across the street, or the General Baptists on the other side of town? You’re not smarter than they are; you’re no better educated than they are. Oh, you say, “But I have the leadership of the Holy Spirit.” Well, those other folks will tell you to their dying breath that they also have the leadership of the Spirit.

9] some profess to believe calvinistic doctrine....but may be void of the Spirit,and so they might have some mental understanding, that yet lacks the grace of God. Some have said things like.....I used to be a calvinist
What they are really saying is....The church I was in believed in calvinism as a system...I was exposed to it somewhat...but in reality I never really grasped it internally, in my heart and soul..so I now say I used to be a calvinist!

So you think it’s not possible for one to embrace and internally grasp this system and then to let it go? Yep, you definitely are egotistical. You think you own the truth, just like the Gnostics of old and like every other cult that has grown out of Christianity over the ages.

 

[Iconoclast]

Zenas,
Thanks for your response, but I was hoping for a better result...ok my friend, lets see where you wanted to go here...

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
What happens....
1] some are slow to develop proper study habits,meditation on the law of God.......

This is an example of your pride and arrogance. I have never encountered an ignorant Calvinist, but you need to realize that you are not the only people who have an intimate knowledge of God and His word. There are many Godly people from various faiths whose understanding of scripture is equal or superior to yours (and by “yours” I mean Calvinists in general).

I post....some are slow to develop study habits,like meditating on the word of God...and that leads you to attack me as proud and arrogant???

Zenas, are you saying you have never seen some professed believers who do not study the word,and struggle because of it???
I did not say study calvinism, I said the law/word of God! you seem poised to argue,or attack me personally. Zenas....i do not have thin skin, I just think this kind of attack is sad.
next;

I will use this one to say that people aren't a bunch of robots doing what they are predestined to do.

God says christians are predestined to be conformed to the Image of His Son
I am okay with that...are you?
next;

I have noticed that 100% of Calvinists believe they are part of the elect

Those who are saved that are called calvinists, do believe in election, because they believe what the bible teaches about election.
If someone does not believe in election, they are not God's child.
next;

Is this a correct observation on my part, or are there some who, after becoming immersed in the system, recognize that God did not call them out of darkness and that they are not part of the elect after all?

Apostates are false professors who leave the ir false profession and go out showing they were never God's elect child;

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

next;

“Sit for years under a man who resists truth”? You’ve got to be kidding

No... there are those who remain in the congregation of the dead...It is Christless Christianity, read Michael hortons book with that title.
next;

6] some are not inclined to any kind of conflict or contending for truth, so if there is a bump in the theological road, they put up a white flag and say things like.....I only follow Jesus, theology does not matter, doctrine divides .....

This is basically an admission that your evangelical fervor frequently morphs into combativeness. This is not true for all but for far too many it is.

Not really Zenas....but you want to make it seem that way...I do combat ignorance or heresy when I see it however.
next;

We have no Calvinists in our church, at least none that I know of. And guess what? The topics of election, predestination, etc. never come up. We don’t sit around and bash Calvinists. It’s not a taboo topic,

it’s just something no one is interested in

.

Really....how sad The topics of election and predestination never come up...
I guess Jesus and the apostles would not be welcomed at your church as they believed and taught these things everywhere

No one is interested in it! Really....not interested in the truth of God...must be some great sermons there for sure....I cannot believe you would type this out in public my friend.....I guess we can take it as a prayer request.

it’s just something no one is interested in

Not interested in most of the scripture:tear:
next;

So you have to have understanding of doctrine to be saved? I guess that pretty much rules out all who can’t read or write.

If a person cannot read and write, does that have to mean they cannot think or understand the word preached?
Although in your church, it does not sound as if there is much of the word being preached if no one is interested in the things you describe!
next;

And what is a correct view of Bible truth? How do you know you’re more correct than the Methodists across the street, or the General Baptists on the other side of town? You’re not smarter than they are; you’re no better educated than they are.

Hey Zenas...did I say I was? or are you getting a little heated up,and trying to make sure I understand that you do not agree , or understand what I believe is the truth of scripture. I think this might be what is going on here.
next;

So you think it’s not possible for one to embrace and internally grasp this system and then to let it go? Yep, you definitely are egotistical. You think you own the truth, just like the Gnostics of old and like every other cult that has grown out of Christianity over the ages.

Well another attack..ok Zenas...hope you are feeling better now.
So what did we learn here...I am all those names you called me....your church does not believe most of the scriptures, leaving out anything about election and predestination.....not interested in this at all!

well my friend what can I say..hope you keep reading what is posted and the verses offered, being you will never hear them in your "church"...
Is that Icabod Baptist church?

 

[humblethinker]

Those who are saved that are called calvinists...

(Emphasis mine)

Surely I have misunderstood you! It sounds as though you are saying the only saved people are the ones called 'Calvinists'. If so, what of all those hundreds of thousands that were called "Christian" before Calvin became famous? By the time they would finally be called "Calvinist" they would have been dead for centuries with no hope of regeneration so that they could then believe. Oh, the injustice!

If someone does not believe in election, they are not God's child.

(Emphasis mine)

This is amazing to me. Would any other Calvinist on this BB support this statement? Would you reaffirm this statement? Those Calvinists who have posted in this thread, will you speak up and come identify yourself with Iconoclast? I dare say that if you don't speak up you may be identified with this kind of speech and reasoning, so, here's your chance to make a difference in how people view Calvinists.

...I cannot believe you would type this out in public my friend...

...said the pot to the kettle!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you are truly a "Humble Thinker" then seek first to understand. Give Iconoclast the opportunity to explain his comments to you & since he earns his living as a truck driver, please exercise some patience. I assure you, he will get back to you.

 

[Zenas]

Iconoclast, nothing I have said here was meant to be a personal attack on you. It was my observations and impressions of the Calvinist movement and since you belong to said movement, it does include you. I will stand by what I have said, and have only two comments.

1. You seem to think a church that does not emphasize predestination, election and God's sovereignty is a pitiful church. It is not. We have some great teaching and preaching going on there. Our pastor is is strictly textual in his approach. Never topical, like you would expect to hear from Rick Warren and the "feel good" preachers. I don't always agree with his views on certain things and that has made for some great conversations and email exchanges. I will soon have been there for 40 years and it has been a great blessing.

2. I hope you will respond to Humblethinker's comments because I find your remarks that he highlighted most disturbing.

 

[Skandelon]

Every bible believer should "believe in election" because the doctrine of election is taught in the bible. The difference is in how we define that doctrine.

Hopefully that is the point Iconoclast was attempting to make?

 

[Iconoclast]

Every bible believer should "believe in election" because the doctrine of election is taught in the bible. The difference is in how we define that doctrine.

Hopefully that is the point Iconoclast was attempting to make?

Yes...exactly Skan.....how can anyone..who is not a newborn babe say they believe in the scripture and turn around and deny election and predestination?

It might be one thing to say it is not easy to understand, or I need to learn more,but too deny or minmize the significancemakes no sense.

HT...will get back to you later...and Zenas...got to keep moving now.

Ht.....when I do comment....I speak as an individual...not for all cals on the board...I will respond to you directly and scripturally as time permits.

 

[Iconoclast]

(Emphasis mine)

Surely I have misunderstood you! It sounds as though you are saying the only saved people are the ones called 'Calvinists'. If so, what of all those hundreds of thousands that were called "Christian" before Calvin became famous? By the time they would finally be called "Calvinist" they would have been dead for centuries with no hope of regeneration so that they could then believe. Oh, the injustice!


(Emphasis mine)

This is amazing to me. Would any other Calvinist on this BB support this statement? Would you reaffirm this statement? Those Calvinists who have posted in this thread, will you speak up and come identify yourself with Iconoclast? I dare say that if you don't speak up you may be identified with this kind of speech and reasoning, so, here's your chance to make a difference in how people view Calvinists.



...said the pot to the kettle!

HT....

Surely I have misunderstood you! It sounds as though you are saying the only saved people are the ones called 'Calvinists'.

read the whole answer...I am answering his inquiry about calvinists...not all christians, you must follow the whole discussion

If so, what of all those hundreds of thousands that were called "Christian" before Calvin became famous? By the time they would finally be called "Calvinist" they would have been dead for centuries with no hope of regeneration so that they could then believe. Oh, the injustice!

Ht....Isaiah was a calvinist, moses was a calvinist.....the term calvinist has little to do with John Calvin himself...
it more describes a view of theology...not so much Calvin.
It is those who understood mans sinful condition and Gods sovereign working throughout redemptive history...even be fore Calvin.
Calvin developed much of what we believe in theology today,regardless if you or I like him or not. Have you read any of his work,or commentaries?

By the time they would finally be called "Calvinist" they would have been dead for centuries with no hope of regeneration so that they could then believe. Oh, the injustice!

This statement indicates you do not understand biblical salvation, unless you are trying to joke, and I am missing it??

This is amazing to me. Would any other Calvinist on this BB support this statement?

HT..I do not know you very well, but this looks like you are talebearing, or something like it. You mis-read my post,...assume a wrong idea, now solicit others to speak against me? Why HT? I am not here to hurt you, or Zenas or anyone else. If you want to question me, or disagree, that is fine.
All I would ask of you is come with the scriptures.
Go through the posts...Allan and I sometimes hold different positions.
Allan does his best not to make a strawman arguement,and if you notice he will offer a scriptural or theological reason for His view.
I try to respect Allan as i know he has read some of the same persons I have,and he freely offers His view which i consider.
Recently quantum faith offered me a link to an arminian site, that makes a serious attempt to find truth...so I will take time to look it over.
HT.....I want truth...do you? Or do you want to try and catch me if I do not write clearly enough what I am trying to express??
You did ask me if I meant what you thought I said, so I am responding to you about it now. I have no secrets here, i will answer you within a day or two....I do not always get online....thursday I delivered in Lawrence kansas, friday, I picked up in crete nebraska, and I just got back to Ny now..so my responses might take some time..but I will respond.

Would you reaffirm this statement?

yes, I can re-word it to clarify it....I could say..among those christians who are also calvinists all believe in election...would that be better for you?

Those Calvinists who have posted in this thread, will you speak up and come identify yourself with Iconoclast? I dare say that if you don't speak up you may be identified with this kind of speech and reasoning,

What kind of speech and reasoning? Your misunderstanding, or my statements.
If you quote my full statements, I will stand by them.

Ht...as a matter of fact...why don't you tell me about yourself, what do you believe, what questions do you have, what objections to the grace of God do you have? I will be glad to respond scripturally, and help you if I can.

here's your chance to make a difference in how people view Calvinists.

most people who argue against calvinism..do not really understand it well as far as I can tell. Some think they can oppose it scripturally,and some are just ignorant about it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, nothing I have said here was meant to be a personal attack on you. It was my observations and impressions of the Calvinist movement and since you belong to said movement, it does include you. I will stand by what I have said, and have only two comments.

1. You seem to think a church that does not emphasize predestination, election and God's sovereignty is a pitiful church. It is not. We have some great teaching and preaching going on there. Our pastor is is strictly textual in his approach. Never topical, like you would expect to hear from Rick Warren and the "feel good" preachers. I don't always agree with his views on certain things and that has made for some great conversations and email exchanges. I will soon have been there for 40 years and it has been a great blessing.

2. I hope you will respond to Humblethinker's comments because I find your remarks that he highlighted most disturbing.

Well Zenas I see what you say here, but let me ask you a few things.
If your pastor and people do not teach,or preach, election,and predestination, how do you know what calvinism is? are you really familiar with it?
Could you describe it accurately? Like I asked HT....what are your objections to the teaching, what do you believe?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You posted to another member here...

Those who are saved that are called calvinists, do believe in election, because they believe what the bible teaches about election.
If someone does not believe in election, they are not God's child.

May Almighty God have mercy.

Iconoclast, I am surprised at you, and saddened. I have considered you to be one of the more *reasonable* calvinists on here.

But here you articulate one of the most absurd, and ridiculous statements that I have ever heard articulated by a calvinist.

Those who are saved that are called calvinists, do believe in election, because they believe what the bible teaches about election.
If someone does not believe in election, they are not God's child.

May God have mercy.

 

[humblethinker]

Surely I have misunderstood you!

Yes, to answer my own post, in fact I did misunderstand you here. I understood you to say "All Christians are called Calvinists" when you actually said "All Christians that are called Calvinists". The word 'that' obviously changes my understanding and hence, the immediate comments that followed were irrelevant in addressing what you actually said. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

The misunderstood statement seemed to fit with the next statement, "If someone does not believe in election, they are not God's child."
I do take issue with this statement being that I don't see where this is ever taught in scripture. You have re-worded the statement in your latest reply, and it definitely gives a different meaning, however, it seems that you still believe that statement since I think you did say you reaffirmed it (I am on aniPhone and the reading and posting is not too friendly to smartphones)... Yes, I see that you did say you reaffirmed the statement but I believe you meant that you would correct the statement with one that better reflected your intent. I also note that you affirmed Skan's explanation on your statement and added the qualifier, "who is not a newborn babe".

Would you say that you would agree with a slight modification to your statement?: "If a Calvinist does not believe in election then he is not God's child.".