You may be teaching Justification by the Law !

[PreachTony]

No you question God's Truth. It is crystal clear that Jesus says that Faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law that ought to have been done Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Rom 4:5 does not say belief/faith is not a work !

Yet Ephesians 2:8a states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."

And Romans 10:13-17 states:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Bible clearly states that we are saved through faith, and we only have faith through hearing the preached word of God. This is plainly stated. It is also plainly stated that our faith upon hearing the preached word is put into action by having to call upon the Lord. Clearly stated.

Why is this such an issue with some people? I don't understand this stubborn belief that so much as "having faith" constitutes a 'work' and therefore cannot be why we are saved, since we are not saved by works. Salvation is not a passive act from man's perspective. It requires us to answer a call that comes from the preached word of God, once our faith is stirred up within us by the convicting power of God's grace.

If you believe that just "having faith" constitutes a work, then you must also believe that "hearing" is a work, as we have to actively perform a task to truly hear. If you hold these things to be true, then you might as well tell us how Paul was wrong when he wrote to the Romans and to those at Ephesus, because obviously he did not tell them rightly, since he told them to have faith, and he told them how faith comes about.

In fact, we have instances pre-Paul in which "belief" was stated as a necessity (see Philip and the Ethiopian). Was Philip wrong in telling the Ethiopian to believe, since apparently belief is a work?

 

[Don]

No you question God's Truth. It is crystal clear that Jesus says that Faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law that ought to have been done Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Rom 4:5 does not say belief/faith is not a work !

It's obvious that you've read something from Matt 23:23 and focused on wording rather than meaning. For example, using the same principle you've apparently applied to this verse, you must obviously believe that 1 Peter 3:20 means we must be baptized to be saved.

Regarding Romans 4:5 -- But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This verse specifically contrasts "work" and "belief/faith"; how can you deny scripture?

 

[savedbymercy]

preachy t

Yet Ephesians 2:8a states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."

I never denied Eph 2:8 ! Show me a quote of mine denying that ? My Point is that Jesus said, not me but Jesus said that Faith is a work of the Law, a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done and not left undone ! Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[PreachTony]

I never denied Eph 2:8 ! Show me a quote of mine denying that ? My Point is that Jesus said, not me but Jesus said that Faith is a work of the Law, a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done and not left undone !

Actually, look at Matthew 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

No where in that verse does it actually say that faith is a work of the law. It says it is one of the weightier matters of the law.

I know you haven't outright denied the scripture in Ephesians, but your argument is one that stands in opposition to that scripture. Simply realizing that the verse in Matthew does not refer to faith as a work clarifies so much.

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

Actually, look at Matthew 23:23

I already have Looked at it, you need to look at it again !

No where in that verse does it actually say that faith is a work of the law

No where in the verse does it actually say that Faith is not a work of the Law, so give me a break !

I know you haven't outright denied the scripture in Ephesians, but your argument is one that stands in opposition to that scripture. Simply realizing that the verse in Matthew does not refer to faith as a work clarifies so much.

I cant say the same for you, you have outright denied that Matt 23:23 does Teach that Faith is a work of the Law that OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN DONE !

Anything that can be done is a work according to the definition of work ergon, the most common greek word for work in the NT It is strongs # 2041 and means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So there is no question about it that Faith / Believing is a thing done by man and so it is a work ! And with Matt 23:23 it is a work of the Law !

 

[PreachTony]

I cant say the same for you, you have outright denied that Matt 23:23 does Teach that Faith is a work of the Law that OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN DONE !

Okay, so faith is a work. We are saved by grace through faith, yet we are not saved of works. Yet faith is a work. How do you reconcile this?

 

[Don]

This belief about Matthew 23:23 can only be held if one denies other scripture (namely, Romans 4:5 and, as Tony pointed out, Ephesians 2).

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

Okay, so faith is a work.

Thats what the scripture indicates !

We are saved by grace through faith, yet we are not saved of works.

Yes ! A person is not saved by their work !

Yet faith is a work. How do you reconcile this?

There is nothing to reconcile. A person is not saved by their work of faith. Now I explained myself in the OP, why not read what I said from the very start !

 

[PreachTony]

Thats what the scripture indicates !

Yes ! A person is not saved by their work !

There is nothing to reconcile. A person is not saved by their work of faith. Now I explained myself in the OP, why not read what I said from the very start !

I'm sorry, I'm just struggling to wrap my head around this one. We all admit that we are saved by grace through faith, and we are not saved by works, yet you are adamant that faith is a work, which negates the possibility of us being saved by faith but not by works.

I've read your OP, and what I gleaned from it was that you don't want to teach justification by the law, and you're stating that faith is a work of the law. So you want us to teach that we are saved by faith, and you want us to teach faith as a work of the law, but you also want to claim that we are not saved by works? Do you see why I'm finding your premise confusing.

The Bible has it stated quite clearly.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This verse teaches justification via faith.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

These verses show that we are saved by grace through faith, and they do not account faith as a work.

The verse you have insisted upon, Matthew 23:23, can be construed either way. Unless you want to say that the words of the gospel inherently carry more weight than the words of the apostles, even though both are divinely inspired and profitable to mankind, then the obvious conclusion to me is that faith is not accounted as a work when it comes to dealing with salvation.

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

The verse you have insisted upon, Matthew 23:23, can be construed either way. Unless you want to say that the words of the gospel inherently carry more weight than the words of the apostles, even though both are divinely inspired and profitable to mankind, then the obvious conclusion to me is that faith is not accounted as a work when it comes to dealing with salvation.

Ok, suite yourself, but Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23, and it seems to me you are insisting on Justification by the work of the Law which is unscriptural !

 

[plain_n_simple]

Faith cannot be a work of the law, faith came before the law, the law shuts up faith.

 

[PreachTony]

Ok, suite yourself, but Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23, and it seems to me you are insisting on Justification by the work of the Law which is unscriptural !

So how are we saved? I've laid it our for you, savedbymercy. The Bible shows we are saved via faith. In the same verse the Bible states that we are not saved by works. You continue to claim faith is a work.

So in your theology how are we saved? One of our opinions has to stand in opposition to the stated position of the scripture.

Maybe we should clarify a point I raised that you did not respond to:
Do you believe the words of Christ, written in the four canonical gospels, carry more weight than the words of the apostles written in letters and epistles at a later date? Understand that this is by no means an attempt on my part to somehow cheapen the words of our Lord, but is instead intended to point out that, as Paul wrote, ALL scripture is divine in inspiration and is profitable for us.

If you insist on the position that faith is a "work of the law" then you leave yourself two options concerning Ephesians 2:8. Either:
1. We are saved via faith and not works, therefore faith is not a work
or
2. Ephesians is incorrect, as we cannot be saved by faith, since faith is a work.
Which one is it, savedbymercy?

 

[Van]

Here are the points from the OP, distilled:
1) Faith is a work, Matthew 23:23. Now the NASB has "faithfulness" but I suspect the KJV has "faith."
2) Our justification is by the faithfulness of Christ. Spot on.
3) Here a substitution is used, changing a work into works. Gal 2:16 And then the works of the Law is said to include our own faith in Christ. Nonsense.
4) We are justified of Christ's faithfulness, not our own. Spot on.
5) Jesus fulfilled the Law. Spot on
6) No one says that fallen man fulfilled the Law. But each born anew believer fulfilled the command to believe with all our heart in God and His Christ.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by Jesus Christ's faithfulness, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Yeshua1]

pt



I already have Looked at it, you need to look at it again !



No where in the verse does it actually say that Faith is not a work of the Law, so give me a break !



I cant say the same for you, you have outright denied that Matt 23:23 does Teach that Faith is a work of the Law that OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN DONE !

Anything that can be done is a work according to the definition of work ergon, the most common greek word for work in the NT It is strongs # 2041 and means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So there is no question about it that Faith / Believing is a thing done by man and so it is a work ! And with Matt 23:23 it is a work of the Law !

God commands the sinner to repent and trust in Jesus, receiving him thru faith in order to get saved, so whose is right on this topic?

God or you?

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

So how are we saved?

Again, I went over that in my OP, If you cant understand my points there, then i have no answer for you !

 

[savedbymercy]

van

Faith is a work, Matthew 23:23. Now the NASB has "faithfulness" but I suspect the KJV has "faith."

Yes its a work of the Law. Also Faith and Faithfulness are the same greek word, pistis so it doesnt matter.

Faithfulness is merely Faith everyday !

 

[PreachTony]

Again, I went over that in my OP, If you cant understand my points there, then i have no answer for you !

So you're not going to address the points I've made, but instead will take the easiest questions out of the bunch, claim you stated it clearly in your OP, and then pressure us to kowtow to your point of view. I can see this conversation will never progress beyond where we are now.

I don't know how you handle the obvious contradiction you have created through your stubborn instance on faith being a work, but I pray you get it sorted out.

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

So you're not going to address the points I've made,

Your points have evaded and denied the Truth, that Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23, your points say that you will continue to believe that a person is saved by their Faith, so so be it. I have explained that A Person is Justified before God by Christ's Faith/ Faithfulness in my OP. So its on you to read what I have already stated on what I believe.


You asked:

So how are we saved?

And I have given my statement in my OP, now did you read it or Not ?

 

[PreachTony]

Your points have evaded and denied the Truth, that Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23, your points say that you will continue to believe that a person is saved by their Faith, so so be it. I have explained that A Person is Justified before God by Christ's Faith/ Faithfulness in my OP. So its on you to read what I have already stated on what I believe.

So, just for clarity's sake, the scripture from Ephesians is wrong? Paul just missed the mark in writing that letter?

 

[Van]

Van,
Yes its a work of the Law. Also Faith and Faithfulness are the same Greek word, pistis so it doesn't matter.

Faithfulness is merely Faith everyday !

Words have a meaning or range of meanings. When actions that flow from faith are in view, the best translation choice is faithfulness. Thus we are justified by Christ's faithfulness, His becoming flesh, the Lamb of God, His sinless life, fulfilling all righteousness, His death on the Cross, fully drinking the cup set before Him.

Faith is a work, but not included in the works of the Law. Note in Galatians 2:16 we believed in Him, and not in works of the Law. Your view makes nonsense of the verse being studied.

Folks, if you are wondering what this thread is really trying to say, it is that our faith in Christ had no part in our salvation because it is simply one of the works of the Law by which no flesh is justified. Silly, yes, but that is the argument.

Take a look at Romans 5:2 where our faith in Christ provides our "access" to the saving grace in which we stand. Our faith did not justify us, but if God credited our worthless faith as righteousness, then He spiritually put us in Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden was removed, thus justified by the blood of Christ.