You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[DHK]

Being born of God is receiving the permanent indwellment of the Holy Spirit of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit, two become one, a new creature is born, regeneration. To say what you said above is wrong. Indwellment is the rebirth! How can you define "born again" any other way?

1. I believe you have an unscriptural concept of what it means to be born again, which is the problem in this discussion.
2. The indwelling of the Spirit as Pentecost marked two things:
a. the fulfillment of prophecy, as given in Joel,
b. the beginning of the Church Age. (This has nothing to do with being born again.

What does it mean to be born again?
Three times did Jesus command Nicodemus to be born again. He wouldn't have given him a command that he could not obey. Nicodemus came to Jesus at peril of his own life--out of fear of the Jews--the very Jews that he ruled. He was a member of the Sanhedrin, a well-known and respected Rabbi. If this news got out his death may have been certain. Then what? Would the command that Jesus gave to Nicodemus had been totally in vain, useless information, had Nicodemus died, as John the Baptist died before the cross. No, not if Nicodemus acted on the light that was given to him at that time. He was commanded to be born again, and shown how he must be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--Every Jew looked for the Kingdom. Even the disciples looked for it. Over and over they asked Christ if he was going to set up his Kingdom now. Even after the resurrection they asked the same question. Just before Jesus ascended into heaven the last question that they asked Jesus:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
--It was the most important thing on their minds.
Jesus said to Nicodemus that he would never see the Kingdom unless he was born again.

Nicodemus was confused, and perhaps thinking of reincarnation asked how could a man be born when he is old, Shall he enter into his mother's womb a second time.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--This is the key verse and one of the most misunderstood.

But before we go into this verse let's look at verse 6.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And then a third time in verse 7 he tells him he must be born again.
However, in verse 6, Jesus says that there are two kinds of births; two kinds of life. There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth. We all have a physical birth. But not all of us have a spiritual birth.

Someone once said: Born once, die twice; born twice, die once. That is an important truth to remember, and it is why you must be born again--to avoid a second death, an eternal death, separation from God for all eternity.
We are born into this world physically. The question is: How can a man be born spiritually?

The answer to that question is given in verse 5:
You must be born of water and of the Spirit.
We all agree that the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit but not necessarily the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; that is reading into this passage something that is not there.
What does it mean to be born of the water? 3 possibilities; 2 that are plausible, one that is the most Scriptural.
1. Does it refer to baptism as the RCC dictates? No, we do not believe in the heresy of baptismal regeneration. Baptism does not save. Baptism does not fit this context.
2. Does it refer to the amniotic fluid surrounding the infant in a natural birth. That is plausible but I don't think it is the most Scriptural explanation. Neither do I think that Nicodemus would have been thinking of amniotic fluid at this point. He knew the OT well, and what things represented.
3. Jesus did say "water." Water does represent something. You must be born of water and of the Spirit. There are two agents here, and only two agents--water and the Spirit. What then does the water refer to? What is water commonly used for? It is commonly used for washing or cleansing, and the Jews had many ceremonial washings. But Jesus said:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--It is the Word of God that cleanses. Water represents the Word of God. You will find the same OT teaching in Psalm 119:9.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--Here James says that we are begotten or born (again) with the Word of truth. Water represents God's Word. There are only two agencies by which a man is born again. One is water (the Word); the other is the Holy Spirit. James says that we are begotten or born of the Word.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--The statement is clear. One is born again by the Word of God. The water represents the Word of God. There are only two agencies by which a man is born again: one is the Word and the other is the Holy Spirit. You must have both. You cannot be saved without the gospel. You must hear the gospel (the Word) to be born again. It is an absolute necessity. You must be convicted (not indwelt) by the Holy Spirit. Both are necessary. Salvation is by the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus meant.

Now go back to John chapter one:
John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In verse 11, his own, the Jews, rejected him. They were looking for the Messiah that would set up His Kingdom right now. He didn't.
--But as many as received him, to them gave he the authority to become the children of God--even to them that believe on his name. Being born again comes from believing in Christ, as Jesus taught all through the gospel of John.
Verse 13 once again:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Which were born of God. We are born again of God. There are many other ways that you can try, but ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit as he works through the Word of God that we are born into his family, and become His children. That is what it means to be born again. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Which were born of God. We are born again of God. There are many other ways that you can try, but ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit as he works through the Word of God that we are born into his family, and become His children. That is what it means to be born again. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit."

GE:
This is the most self-contradicting and self-destructive statement I have read in my whole life. Coming from DHK it is even more surprising.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'The Word of God' is the Scriptures; but it is Jesus Christ before anything else. This is a paradox - not a contradiction.
Just so was it a paradox for Nicodemus that he had to be "born of water and of spirit". First this 'law-of-salvation' must be read in small letters, so that 'water' may indicate the Scriptures and 'spirit' may indicate the inner or spiritual man. Next - but in importance and actuality first - this phrase should be understood with capital letters, "born of Water and of Spirit", so that 'Water' may indicate Jesus Christ the "Author and Finisher of our salvation", and 'Spirit' may indicate the Holy Spirit without whose operation and presence within and upon the inner or spiritual man, man has the hope of the snowball in hell to escape its torments.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The saved shall be born "BY the Spirit" - to use the words of DHK - to show that the Holy Spirit uses means to bring about rebirth; that 'means' is the Scriptures or the Word of God, or 'Water'. But John wrote "born OF the Spirit" - he didn't use the Accusative as for a direct object or the Dative as for a means whereby a man may be born again; he uses the Genitive of Subject - the Spirit is the Doer; not the man! "Salvation is of God ...." THEY KNEW IT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT ALREADY AND IT WILL NEVER BE OTHERWISE. It is the Spirit of Christ; there is no other 'holy spirit'. Anyone saved, is saved by Christ by being born again of the Holy Spirit. It shall be a mysterie and not a contradiction.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit as he works through the Word of God that we are born into his family, and become His children. That is what it means to be born again. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit."

GE:
The Holy Spirit shall naturally have to make and take 'dwelling in' any whom He will 'work (upon) through the Word of God' in order to bring about the 'rebirth' or the new creation or new man. The Spirit does not operate outside any as though He were a hammer working on an iron. Rather the Holy Spirit works like the heat from the fire within the iron that is being hammered. The being hammered into shape rather resembles the work of the Word, than the work of the Spirit. The Fire and the Hammer are put to work together.

 

[steaver]

Mark:

Your position is that you must be filled with the Holy Ghost to be born again, yet you have not explanation for those who were filled with the Holy Ghost. That is not harmony.

Page 23 post #221 by Steaver:

I already showed you how the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again, Spirit giving birth to spirit, indwellment of the Holy Spirit, the creating of a new creature in Christ. And I used SCRIPTURE!

It was under dilemma #1 and #2; Here is #2 again;

2) Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Dilemma #2, why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through.

This alone teaches us that being filled with the Spirit is not "born again".

Therefore the scriptures you posted using the expression "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again indwellment".

Answer the question Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

I answered this now for the second time and I used scripture to interpret my position on the matter. Can you do the same?

And you never gave an answer for this dilemma which I am sure everyone watching this has noticed. Care to find harmony as I have?

Post #229 by Steaver;

Now, as born of God children, we are commanded to be "filled with the Spirit". A whole other ministry of the Holy Spirit, letting our flesh die daily and letting the fulness of all the Spirit has to offer control our every thought and desires.

There are many ministries and works of the Holy Spirit. I have shown by scripture that the Holy Spirit's ministry of regeneration was not yet given until Jesus was glorified and that the ministry of the Holy Spirit's "being filled with the Spirit" does not equate with the ministry of "born again".

The scriptures you posted cannot equate to regeneration. They can only then be that the Holy Spirit was working His power mightly through them and in them for a purpose of a witness as to what was being said or what was taking place or was to take place. One did not need to be born again to have this happen. Even an ass experienced some ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Mark:

Your position is that all those who received Christ were given "power" to become the sons of God, and you say it is somewhere in the future. Jesus sent the Apostles to preach the Gospel and you say they were not saved. Jesus said "Father, I have lost none", lost from what?

Post #217 by Steaver;

Now if you want to expand the term "saved" to include all of those who would at a future time receive the Holy Spirit rebirth, then yes, all the OT saints and the disciples were saved or being saved through faith.

Nicodemus believed Jesus was the Christ and after Jesus' glorification Nicodemus would have received the promise of the Holy Spirit rebirth just like all the other saints who had waited for it by faith.

Like I said many times, "saved" is not a OT term, it is a NT term and when we preach it we are telling people ye must be born again. So if you want to say in hindsight that the OT saints were being saved then that is ok, but "saved" as we preach it is being "born again" and this did not happen to anyone until after the ressurrection and glorification of Jesus.

Mark;

Paul came preaching a different way, than Peter was preaching, so where was their "harmony".

Harmony in doctrine bother! Come on now!

Mark;

Can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left all the people in Luke 1, or can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left John the Baptist?

Where is your harmony? You do not have it.

See above quotes.

Unanswered question to Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

 

[steaver]

I enjoyed the exposition brother, but I have a few points of contention.

1. I believe you have an unscriptural concept of what it means to be born again, which is the problem in this discussion.

I know, as do I you brother.

Three times did Jesus command Nicodemus to be born again. He wouldn't have given him a command that he could not obey.

I know you keep saying Jesus commanded him to be born again. I say Jesus was teaching him what born again is and that it is required for entering into the Kingdom of God that he was looking for.

But for the sake of argument let me put this in perspective. You believe Nicodemus could have been born again right there and now because Jesus gave a command that he should and Jesus would not give a command to him that he could not act on immediately.

Let's take this to other scriptures and see if it coinsides with this thought.

Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus "commanded", as you would say, for the woman to ask and receive the "living water" immediately. Could she have received it?

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


She could have asked and she could have believed but she had to wait for the living water until after Jesus was glorified.

--Every Jew looked for the Kingdom. Even the disciples looked for it. Over and over they asked Christ if he was going to set up his Kingdom now. Even after the resurrection they asked the same question.

And Jesus said,

Jhn 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Why did the disciples not know that they were IN the Kingdom of God through their alleged rebirth? The disciples still did not understand even though they had supposedly experienced being born into the Kingdom of God? Jesus had been with them so long and they did not understand the Kingdom of God would be a spiritual one?

They did not understand because the Spirit was not yet given. They needed the Spirit to understand.

I gotta go for now :wavey:

 

[mark1]

As you yourself posted, the Spirit has many functions.

Steaver: There are many ministries and works of the Holy Spirit.

You must be "born again" and it has to be by the Holy Spirit, it can't be by the flesh. Jesus told us that.

 

[mark1]

Being born of God is receiving the permanent indwellment of the Holy Spirit of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit, two become one, a new creature is born, regeneration. To say what you said above is wrong. Indwellment is the rebirth! How can you define "born again" any other way? Show me from the scriptures that it is NOT the Spirit joining with spirit to produce living water, eternal life. This is indwellment.

Steaver: I do not know how you can post the above, then deny that those who were actually filled with the Holy Spirit, as in Luke 1, are not "born again"

You say by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person is "born again", but when shown where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, then you say they are not "born again".

Both parties received the "Holy Spirit" from God. It may have been in different ways, but they both received it from God and it is the same Spirit. I am confused by your remark. You seem to reject it because the Holy Spirit came by different means.

Question:
Will those filled with the Holy Ghost before Jesus died, be in Heaven?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Holy Spirit is given with measure to everyone He is given except Christ to whom He was given without measure; in fact, the Holy Spirit of God is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ; and the Confessions confess that He eminates from the Father and and as from the Son.

But to any human being He is given according to measure of the will of God, so that the Apostles were not Apostles until so gifted by the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost, because "according to the Scriptures"); so that any man remains a sinner even though saved and given eternal life through Jesus Christ.

There is a BIG difference between what happened on that first Sundaynight and that last Pentecost Sabbath-Day!

 

[DHK]

the Confessions confess that He eminates from the Father and and as from the Son.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The only confession that I am concerned with is when I confessed Jesus Christ as my Savior. Other confessions I couldn't care less about. I believe in the Scriptures, and in the principle of sola scriptura. Confessions are not necessary.

 

[steaver]

Mark;

Can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left all the people in Luke 1, or can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left John the Baptist?

Those "filled with the Holy Ghost" were so filled to be witnesses to the people of things God was doing or was going to do. It is not a "rebirth".

John said of John the baptist,

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.

Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.

What happened to John the Baptist after his purpose was fulfilled? John said,

Jhn 3:30He must increase, but I [must] decrease.

John's purpose has been fulfilled and the "Holy Ghost filling" is withdrawing from him. Would John ask such a question as this if he was still "filled with the Holy Ghost"?

Luk 7:20When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

John now doubts? A man "filled with the Holy Ghost" who had already testified for God by the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world? You might say 'well, we all doubt sometimes'. John the Baptist, the greatest prophet? A man supposedly still full of the Holy Ghost witness? A man who lived his entire life filled with the Holy Ghost now doubts? Did he not have the Holy Spirit which testifies that we are the children of God? The Spirit that testifies Jesus is the Christ?

John doubts because John is no longer "filled with the Spirit". John must now wait through faith to be "born again" just like all the rest. John needs that permanent witness given by the "rebirth" to be in his very spirit.

Who can give an understanding of this following passage?

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The "least" in the Kingdom of God is "greater" than the greatest prophet ever born of woman, John the Baptist, why?

In your view Mark (and DHK), all the OT saints are in the kingdom of God through rebirth prior to any thing ever occuring in the NT. Jesus has declared John the greatest of them all. How can this be if John is already in the kingdom of God with all the rest? How is John the greatest and not the greatest at the same time?

 

[steaver]

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Which were born of God. We are born again of God. There are many other ways that you can try, but ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit as he works through the Word of God that we are born into his family, and become His children. That is what it means to be born again. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I must say that this view of the rebirth is very strange to me, actually brand new to me. I have never heard any preacher ever say, nor commentarian ever say, that the rebirth was only a conviction of the Holy Spirit and not an indwellement of the Holy Spirit. Have you found support for this in the community of spiritual teachers God has given we the church?

One who is born of the flesh has the flesh of his father. One who is born of the Spirit has the spirit of his Father.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[mark1]

Those "filled with the Holy Ghost" were so filled to be witnesses to the people of things God was doing or was going to do. It is not a "rebirth".

John said of John the baptist,

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.

Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.

What happened to John the Baptist after his purpose was fulfilled? John said,

Jhn 3:30He must increase, but I [must] decrease.

John's purpose has been fulfilled and the "Holy Ghost filling" is withdrawing from him. Would John ask such a question as this if he was still "filled with the Holy Ghost"?

Luk 7:20When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

John now doubts? A man "filled with the Holy Ghost" who had already testified for God by the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world? You might say 'well, we all doubt sometimes'. John the Baptist, the greatest prophet? A man supposedly still full of the Holy Ghost witness? A man who lived his entire life filled with the Holy Ghost now doubts? Did he not have the Holy Spirit which testifies that we are the children of God? The Spirit that testifies Jesus is the Christ?

John doubts because John is no longer "filled with the Spirit". John must now wait through faith to be "born again" just like all the rest. John needs that permanent witness given by the "rebirth" to be in his very spirit.

Yet this man, you say is not longer filled with the Holy Ghost because he doubted for a moment, (which I dare say, you have doubted also, from time to time), This man not filled with the Holy Ghost, as you say, for the "word" had his head removed or cutoff.
If only you or I could be that filled with the Holy Ghost to have our heads cut off.

Who can give an understanding of this following passage?

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The "least" in the Kingdom of God is "greater" than the greatest prophet ever born of woman, John the Baptist, why?

Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

How can I argue with the word? You say the Kingdom was within them, but not the Holy Spirit.

In your view Mark (and DHK), all the OT saints are in the kingdom of God through rebirth prior to any thing ever occuring in the NT. Jesus has declared John the greatest of them all. How can this be if John is already in the kingdom of God with all the rest? How is John the greatest and not the greatest at the same time?

Mat 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 27:42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Luk 7:50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

What did He save them in too, and how did He save them?

 

[DHK]

I must say that this view of the rebirth is very strange to me, actually brand new to me. I have never heard any preacher ever say, nor commentarian ever say, that the rebirth was only a conviction of the Holy Spirit and not an indwellement of the Holy Spirit. Have you found support for this in the community of spiritual teachers God has given we the church?

Of course. Many use this approach in their evangelism all the time. Verse 13 is a continuation (even the same sentence) as verse 12.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus came to his own (the Jews). They rejected him as their Messiah, and crucified him instead.
But as many as received him (that is all that is needed), to them gave he power (authority) to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Here in this verse we see that we must receive the gift of God (salvation) by faith. It is very simply put. But it is also clarified in the next verse which is a continuation of verse 12:

Which were born of God--born again of God.
--Which were born, not of blood. You are not a Christian just because you are born into a "Christian family." That does not make one a Christian.
--Which were born of the will of the flesh. There is nothing carnal that you can do: baptism, confirmation, etc., that will make you a Christian.
--Nor of the will of man--It is not an intellectual decision only. Many think they are Christians, but are not. It is the second largest religion in the world, but very few of that number are born again.
--But are born of God. You must be born of God. You must be born again. This is what Christ was speaking of. You must be born into God's family, made a child of God, as opposed to the natural birth wherein we are naturally born into the devil's family (Eph.2:1-3). To do that one must be born of the Holy Spirit as He works through the Word of God (John 3:1-6).

 

[mark1]

Of course. Many use this approach in their evangelism all the time. Verse 13 is a continuation (even the same sentence) as verse 12.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus came to his own (the Jews). They rejected him as their Messiah, and crucified him instead.
But as many as received him (that is all that is needed), to them gave he power (authority) to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Here in this verse we see that we must receive the gift of God (salvation) by faith. It is very simply put. But it is also clarified in the next verse which is a continuation of verse 12:

Which were born of God--born again of God.
--Which were born, not of blood. You are not a Christian just because you are born into a "Christian family." That does not make one a Christian.
--Which were born of the will of the flesh. There is nothing carnal that you can do: baptism, confirmation, etc., that will make you a Christian.
--Nor of the will of man--It is not an intellectual decision only. Many think they are Christians, but are not. It is the second largest religion in the world, but very few of that number are born again.
--But are born of God. You must be born of God. You must be born again. This is what Christ was speaking of. You must be born into God's family, made a child of God, as opposed to the natural birth wherein we are naturally born into the devil's family (Eph.2:1-3). To do that one must be born of the Holy Spirit as He works through the Word of God (John 3:1-6).

Amen, and very well put. This should put to rest what that "Power" was, that He gave them who received Him, which would include, John the Baptist, all those in Luke 1, plus any other Jew who received Him as the Christ, even those who believed on His name.

I would not know why anyone could not read this and understand "born again", of God.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I tried to say it, but it did not come across, as well as you have put it DHK.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The only confession that I am concerned with is when I confessed Jesus Christ as my Savior. Other confessions I couldn't care less about. I believe in the Scriptures, and in the principle of sola scriptura. Confessions are not necessary.

GE:
Is that how you feel about your 'only confession'? Was it necessary? I say confession - not an 'only' one, but a LIFE OF confession with the mouth and believing with the heart - is 'necessary'; but not conditionally, but from the nature of the Faith of Jesus Christ.

It could be said in terms of 'Law', 'Thou shalt believe; thou shalt confess'. More a result - an inevitable result - like the tree that bears good fruit cannot help but bear good fruit.

And, it has got NOTHING to do with knowledge of the Scriptures; it has got EVERYTHING TO DO with God knowing a man so as that he SHALL become a believer and a confessor of faith in Christ the only Saviour --- not 'only' once and at some beginning or baptism or something, but all a man's life until the day he dies.

 

[mark1]

Amen, and very well put. This should put to rest what that "Power" was, that He gave them who received Him, which would include, John the Baptist, all those in Luke 1, plus any other Jew who received Him as the Christ, even those who believed on His name.

I would not know why anyone could not read this and understand "born again", of God.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I tried to say it, but it did not come across, as well as you have put it DHK.

You will find all the way back to post #181 and #189 when this subject first came up, that I gave this very answer.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1301660&postcount=181

Originally Posted by steaver
"Saved" is not a term used in the OT. When we use this term in our discussions and our preaching we are speaking about having been born again, a NT term that goes along with the term "saved". "Saved" being a past event. WE could get technical and make sure we define saved each time we speak it but I don't think that would truly be necessary. Maybe I am wrong and it is necessary.

So let me restate it this way, Thomas was not "born again" until Jesus said "receive ye the Holy Spirit". So Thomas was not "saved", as we use the term, until he saw Jesus had truly risen and until he fell down on his knees and acknowleged that Jesus is Lord and God, and Jesus gave him the HS.

Mark1:
I would not be too hasty:

Jhn 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1302017&postcount=189

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Originally Posted by steaver
Mark, how does this refute my post? I don't get it.

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Mark1:

They become the sons of God, while you said they were not yet saved. How can you become the son of God, through belief and not be saved? He gave them "Power". Part of His plan to redeem man.

 

[steaver]

Of course. Many use this approach in their evangelism all the time. Verse 13 is a continuation (even the same sentence) as verse 12.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus came to his own (the Jews). They rejected him as their Messiah, and crucified him instead.
But as many as received him (that is all that is needed), to them gave he power (authority) to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Here in this verse we see that we must receive the gift of God (salvation) by faith. It is very simply put. But it is also clarified in the next verse which is a continuation of verse 12:

Which were born of God--born again of God.
--Which were born, not of blood. You are not a Christian just because you are born into a "Christian family." That does not make one a Christian.
--Which were born of the will of the flesh. There is nothing carnal that you can do: baptism, confirmation, etc., that will make you a Christian.
--Nor of the will of man--It is not an intellectual decision only. Many think they are Christians, but are not. It is the second largest religion in the world, but very few of that number are born again.
--But are born of God. You must be born of God. You must be born again. This is what Christ was speaking of. You must be born into God's family, made a child of God, as opposed to the natural birth wherein we are naturally born into the devil's family (Eph.2:1-3). To do that one must be born of the Holy Spirit as He works through the Word of God (John 3:1-6).

Couple of issues here.

1) you did not answer my question pertaining to our communtity of Christian preachers or commentarians declaring that "born again" is a conviction and nothing to do with the Holy Spirit indwellement.

2)

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Here in this verse we see that we must receive the gift of God (salvation) by faith.

This is not the issue we are discussing. Yes salvation is through faith alone. The OT saints were being "saved" because of their faith alone in God.

We are on the issue of "born again" and the timing of which the scriptures teaches this occurs.

3)

to them gave he power (authority) to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Here we are in a transitional stage and this is why God's word is so perfect. Those who believed had been given the "right" or 'authority' to become the sons of God. God is very careful or perfect I should say in His wording of things. If your view would be correct it would read...."those who received Him were instantly born of God". Which is true for all of those after the glorification of Jesus, but not true in this transitional stage in the real time events unfolding at the time or true of the OT saints.

John says the "living water" was not yet given, which would be the Holy Spirit regeneration. (7:38-39)

Just because I am given the right to have something it does not necessarily mean I have already received it.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Have you eaten of this tree yet? But you are given the right!

 

[steaver]

Do you guys understand that being given the right does not require imediate action?

Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" satge...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

Jhn 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They didn't know the truth yet.

By the end of the conversation these "who believed on Him" were ready to kill Him.

Jhn 8:48¶Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Do you believe in OSAS Mark? Once born of God always a child of God? Do you believe children of God would think Jesus has a devil?