You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Do you guys understand that being given the right does not require imediate action?

Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" satge...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

HP: Are you going to deny Scripture? “ Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT be saved.” Are you suggesting that when one 'believes' that he has only been given the 'right' to believe?

Caution: You appear to me to be one destined to be found digging a very deep hole for yourself and your beliefs.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" satge...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

HP: May I assume that you are saying that belief, apart from any and all conditions, in and of itself, does not birth one into the kingdom?

 

[steaver]

HP: Are you going to deny Scripture? “ Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT be saved.” Are you suggesting that when one 'believes' that he has only been given the 'right' to believe?

Caution: You appear to me to be one destined to be found digging a very deep hole for yourself and your beliefs.

You are out of touch with this conversation HP. It is about "born again" and when it was implemented.

HP: May I assume that you are saying that belief, apart from any and all conditions, in and of itself, does not birth one into the kingdom?

Faith is the vehicle that leads to regeneration, born again. Born again did not happen until after Jesus was glorified (Jhn 7:38-39)

Now since Jesus has been glorified all who believe in Him do not wait for regeneration, it happens the moment they believe.

 

[steaver]

Yet this man, you say is not longer filled with the Holy Ghost because he doubted for a moment, (which I dare say, you have doubted also, from time to time), This man not filled with the Holy Ghost, as you say, for the "word" had his head removed or cutoff.
If only you or I could be that filled with the Holy Ghost to have our heads cut off.

Do you think if John the Baptist told the jailers he no longer would preach Jesus the Christ that they would have let him go? I believe his fate was sealed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You are out of touch with this conversation HP. It is about "born again" and when it was implemented.

HP: Quite the contrary Steaver. Every thread is broader than a simple single issue and takes into account more than any one single point.

Tell us Steaver, is a man born again when he believes, or does he have to wait until he ‘continues’ in the faith? If he is not born again at belief, when does he continue enough to be said to have arrived at saving faith?

Here again was your comment:

Steaver: Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" satge...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[steaver]

Tell us Steaver, is a man born again when he believes, or does he have to wait until he ‘continues’ in the faith? If he is not born again at belief, when does he continue enough to be said to have arrived at saving faith?

Steaver;

Faith is the vehicle that leads to regeneration, born again. Born again did not happen until after Jesus was glorified (Jhn 7:38-39)

Now since Jesus has been glorified all who believe in Him do not wait for regeneration, it happens the moment they believe.

Here again was your comment:
Quote:
Steaver: Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" stage...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

Here is the full context of my comment....

Do you guys understand that being given the right does not require imediate action?

Here are some "believers" who did not make it to the "born again" stage...

Jhn 8:31¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

Jhn 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They didn't know the truth yet.

By the end of the conversation these "who believed on Him" were ready to kill Him.

Jhn 8:48¶Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Please stay in context and stay on topic if you wish to quote my comments.
These Jews "believed on Jesus". This is pre-glorification of Jesus. Regeneration was not availiable to them yet. If they would have continued to believe they would have received the Holy Spirit rebirth after Jesus' glorification. They did not continue and therefore forfieted any right to become a son of God.

 

[steaver]

Don't forget this guys;

Who can give an understanding of this following passage?

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The "least" in the Kingdom of God is "greater" than the greatest prophet ever born of woman, John the Baptist, why?

In your view Mark (and DHK), all the OT saints are in the kingdom of God through rebirth prior to any thing ever occuring in the NT. Jesus has declared John the greatest of them all. How can this be if John is already in the kingdom of God with all the rest? How is John the greatest and not the greatest at the same time?

 

[DHK]

Here we are in a transitional stage and this is why God's word is so perfect. Those who believed had been given the "right" or 'authority' to become the sons of God. God is very careful or perfect I should say in His wording of things. If your view would be correct it would read...."those who received Him were instantly born of God". Which is true for all of those after the glorification of Jesus, but not true in this transitional stage in the real time events unfolding at the time or true of the OT saints.

John says the "living water" was not yet given, which would be the Holy Spirit regeneration. (7:38-39)

Just because I am given the right to have something it does not necessarily mean I have already received it.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Have you eaten of this tree yet? But you are given the right!

Do you believe in the importance of carrying out the great commission:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word power is authority, or what you are translating as "right."
That power that Christ has, he is saying that we have access to the same power or authority, and to therefore go and teach all nations...and lo I am with you alway. The promise to be with us always is the promise to have access all the time to that same power all the time.

 

[mark1]

Don't forget this guys;

I pray you can understand this, but Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was not in the Kingdom, but that the least in the Kingdom was greater than he.

It is saying even though John the Baptist was the greatest among the Prophets born of woman, but being in the Kingdom was even greater, than that!



Jesus, did not want anyone putting John the Baptist on a pedestal,for he must decrease and Jesus increase. The both were in the Kingdom, it was just that John must decrease.

Jhn 13:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Can you read and understand now, that John came leading the way and Jesus was to be baptized of John the Baptist, but then John must decrease and the Lord increase.

Also, those who came first would be last. John must decrease and the Lord increase, therefore being greater and of course He was and is.

Mat 19:30

But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

Please understand, they both were in the Kingdom.

 

[steaver]

I pray you can understand this, but Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was not in the Kingdom, but that the least in the Kingdom was greater than he.

It is saying even though John the Baptist was the greatest among the Prophets born of woman, but being in the Kingdom was even greater, than that!

Your prayer is answered, but Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was in the Kingdom either. Those observations work both ways.

I have a question for you brother, What is your position on Calvin's teaching that a person is regenerated by God prior to any placing of faith in God?

I ask this because don't you believe John the Baptist was born of God even before he was born of a woman? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said.

 

[mark1]

Your prayer is answered, but Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was in the Kingdom either. Those observations work both ways.

I have a question for you brother, What is your position on Calvin's teaching that a person is regenerated by God prior to any placing of faith in God?

I ask this because don't you believe John the Baptist was born of God even before he was born of a woman? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said.

I have been through many of the C/A debates and do not think Predestination is something that is too hard for God, simply because, He works in time and mostly outside of time. He is Omnipresence and Omniscience and can see now what I am doing, my death, my resurrection, but mostly when I believed. He also, can see right now the beginning from the end, John the Baptist in his mother's womb and Judas as a devil from the beginning.

So, a more simple answer is that God had a predestinated plan, that was to be fulfilled in due time. Of which John the Baptist was a predestinated part of that plan before he was ever born, as was Apostle Paul, who in his worst of sins, was blinded by God, so as to fit in this plan.

As for all mankind, choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. God is everly present and teaching all men, but so is the devil. We have no excuse for choosing to believe in the wrong one.

 

[steaver]

I have been through many of the C/A debates and do not think Predestination is something that is too hard for God, simply because, He works in time and mostly outside of time. He is Omnipresence and Omniscience and can see now what I am doing, my death, my resurrection, but mostly when I believed. He also, can see right now the beginning from the end, John the Baptist in his mother's womb and Judas as a devil from the beginning.

So, a more simple answer is that God had a predestinated plan, that was to be fulfilled in due time. Of which John the Baptist was a predestinated part of that plan before he was ever born, as was Apostle Paul, who in his worst of sins, was blinded by God, so as to fit in this plan.

As for all mankind, choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. God is everly present and teaching all men, but so is the devil. We have no excuse for choosing to believe in the wrong one.

You and I too are a part of God's predestination plan even before the foundation of the world. So it can be said that you and I only fulfilled God's plan by receiving regeneration at the appointed time God predestined.

If John the Baptist had no choice in the matter, then why do you believe we had a choice in the matter? Does God have exceptions to His word when He lays out His salvation plan which declares one must believe on His Son Jesus Christ to be born again, but some get to be born again first?

Could Calvin be right that regeneration comes first due to the foreknowledge of God? Either God allows exceptions or God has two salvation plans going at once.

 

[steaver]

Do you believe in the importance of carrying out the great commission:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word power is authority, or what you are translating as "right."
That power that Christ has, he is saying that we have access to the same power or authority, and to therefore go and teach all nations...and lo I am with you alway. The promise to be with us always is the promise to have access all the time to that same power all the time.

Good stuff DHK , but what has this to do with the timing as to when the power is given?

 

[mark1]

You and I too are a part of God's predestination plan even before the foundation of the world. So it can be said that you and I only fulfilled God's plan by receiving regeneration at the appointed time God predestined.

If John the Baptist had no choice in the matter, then why do you believe we had a choice in the matter? Does God have exceptions to His word when He lays out His salvation plan which declares one must believe on His Son Jesus Christ to be born again, but some get to be born again first?

Could Calvin be right that regeneration comes first due to the foreknowledge of God? Either God allows exceptions or God has two salvation plans going at once.

Of course there were some chosen for a specific purpose. Could anyone else baptized the Lord? Please tell me?

Could anyone else betrayed the Lord? Please tell me?

Excuse me, but I have never read in scripture where God chose you, but where he gave you a choice whether to believe or not. After you believed, then He chose you out of the world, and not before. Hope that answers your question.

If I am not mistaken, you do not believe what you are asking me to defend, so what is the purpose do you want to start another C/A debate?

 

[DHK]

Good stuff DHK , but what has this to do with the timing as to when the power is given?

All throughout his ministry Jesus gave power and authority to his disciples.
He first sent the twelve out with power.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Then he sent the seventy out with power.
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

The authority to do this was not given to unsaved men.
It was not given to men that were not born again.
These men were part of God's family, children of God, exercising the power of God in their lives.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Mark1:
"I have never read in scripture where God chose you, but where he gave you a choice whether to believe or not. After you believed, then He chose you out of the world, and not before. Hope that answers your question."

GE:
You cannot know the Scriptures, if you haven't read that God chooses whom he chooses. Just read John 17.

Now you show me where God gave you a choice whether to believe or not, please, Mark1!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:
"Calvin's teaching that a person is regenerated by God prior to any placing of faith in God?"
"Could Calvin be right that regeneration comes first due to the foreknowledge of God?"

GE:
Steaver, don't tell us what you say Calvin taught; give us what he taught.
I would say neither of these two things you here ascribe to him you won't find contextually the same in any of his writings.

 

[mark1]

Mark1:
"I have never read in scripture where God chose you, but where he gave you a choice whether to believe or not. After you believed, then He chose you out of the world, and not before. Hope that answers your question."

GE:
You cannot know the Scriptures, if you haven't read that God chooses whom he chooses. Just read John 17.

Now you show me where God gave you a choice whether to believe or not, please, Mark1!

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If all people deserve hell? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity, or did He give us a choice and if we miss Heaven, it will be at our own hands. Did He say, I called, but you did not answer?

 

[steaver]

GE:
Steaver, don't tell us what you say Calvin taught; give us what he taught.
I would say neither of these two things you here ascribe to him you won't find contextually the same in any of his writings.

Then why does every website one searches describe Calvin's view under the acronym TULIP which decalres man must be regenerated first that he may then believe?

Are you saying Calvin never taught that man must be regenerated first prior to any placing of faith going on?

 

[steaver]

Excuse me, but I have never read in scripture where God chose you, but where he gave you a choice whether to believe or not. After you believed, then He chose you out of the world, and not before. Hope that answers your question.

If I am not mistaken, you do not believe what you are asking me to defend, so what is the purpose do you want to start another C/A debate?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The purpose of my questions was because you said this...

Mark;

So, a more simple answer is that God had a predestinated plan, that was to be fulfilled in due time. Of which John the Baptist was a predestinated part of that plan before he was ever born, as was Apostle Paul, who in his worst of sins, was blinded by God, so as to fit in this plan.

As for all mankind, choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. God is everly present and teaching all men, but so is the devil. We have no excuse for choosing to believe in the wrong one.

Which I replied...

Steaver;

You and I too are a part of God's predestination plan even before the foundation of the world. So it can be said that you and I only fulfilled God's plan by receiving regeneration at the appointed time God predestined.

If John the Baptist had no choice in the matter, then why do you believe we had a choice in the matter? Does God have exceptions to His word when He lays out His salvation plan which declares one must believe on His Son Jesus Christ to be born again, but some get to be born again first?

Could Calvin be right that regeneration comes first due to the foreknowledge of God? Either God allows exceptions or God has two salvation plans going at once.

And you did not answer the questions.