You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[steaver]

All throughout his ministry Jesus gave power and authority to his disciples.
He first sent the twelve out with power.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Then he sent the seventy out with power.
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

The authority to do this was not given to unsaved men.
It was not given to men that were not born again.
These men were part of God's family, children of God, exercising the power of God in their lives.

I am with you until you bring in the "born again" opinion. I know this is what you believe but you have not been able to actually show it from scripture. It is just one of those "well they must have been, how could God use them if they were not?"

Mat 10:1¶And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

You rightly say that the disciples were given power by Jesus. Why would you make the leap to they must have been born again? Judas was also one of those disciples who the scripture declares was given power. Do you believe Judas was born again?

 

[DHK]

I am with you until you bring in the "born again" opinion. I know this is what you believe but you have not been able to actually show it from scripture. It is just one of those "well they must have been, how could God use them if they were not?"

Mat 10:1¶And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

You rightly say that the disciples were given power by Jesus. Why would you make the leap to they must have been born again? Judas was also one of those disciples who the scripture declares was given power. Do you believe Judas was born again?

Jannes and Jambres were the names of two of the "magicians" of Pharaoh who also were given the power to work miracles. Was their power given to them by God or by Satan?

 

[steaver]

Jannes and Jambres were the names of two of the "magicians" of Pharaoh who also were given the power to work miracles. Was their power given to them by God or by Satan?

Neither.

They were "magicians" 1.an entertainer who is skilled in producing illusion by sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; conjurer.

Exd 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

They did "in like manner" not "just as Moses did by the power of God"

They did it with their "enchantments" which is "trickery".

But none of this has anything to do with Jesus giving Judas power to perform miracles. So my question is still unanswered.

Judas was also one of those disciples who the scripture declares was given power. Do you believe Judas was born again?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Mark1, re your post 278 --- You have not answered my two questions to you. Please give me one line where God gives man the choice to obey or not to obey!

Besides, Would you tell that okes like me do not believe the Scriptures you actually did give -- but not one in answer to my questions? Would you have the RIGHT to say anyone like me who does not believe that God gives man the choice to believe or not to believe or to obey or not to obey, are not entitled to believe wholeheartedly the Scriptures you have quoted?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then why does every website one searches describe Calvin's view under the acronym TULIP which decalres man must be regenerated first that he may then believe?

Are you saying Calvin never taught that man must be regenerated first prior to any placing of faith going on?

GE:
What these 'websites' say, want to say, will to say, is not what Calvin said; it is meant to oppose what Calvin said. E.g. It is NOT "Calvin's teaching that a person is regenerated by God prior to any placing of faith in God".
It is Calvin's teaching that a person is regenerated by God THROUGH placing of faith in God in him, simultaneously, the one NEVER without the other. That is how i, have learned to understand Calvin in his Institutions especially. I may add that some of his sermons are not so clear -- which is understandable for good reasons.

"Could Calvin be right that regeneration comes first due to the foreknowledge of God?"
If understood herewith that God regenerates any because He could foresee what they, first would do, then this is not Calvin or the Gospel. Whom God foreknew, He fore-ordained first, that they would come to the knowledge of God BY THE OPERATIONS OF GOD; this is God's election - God's choosing from among the dead in sin, those He wanted to give the gift of life through and in Jesus Christ, by faith --- no other way - God ordained - than by faith!

 

[mark1]

Mark1, re your post 278 --- You have not answered my two questions to you. Please give me one line where God gives man the choice to obey or not to obey!

Besides, Would you tell that okes like me do not believe the Scriptures you actually did give -- but not one in answer to my questions? Would you have the RIGHT to say anyone like me who does not believe that God gives man the choice to believe or not to believe or to obey or not to obey, are not entitled to believe wholeheartedly the Scriptures you have quoted?

GE:
I see no reason to post the same scriptures over again, but which one, does not give okes like you a choice, to believe or not believe, but you will say, God regenerated you so you had to believe, but left others out, which would make God the Author of Sin.

Do you also believe that the road to hell is paved with the skulls and bones of babies?

Also:

Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

(Did God make some lend their members to do evil, and some to lend their members to do good)? Is God the Author of sin?

Also, I would not even think about telling you or anyone else, whether you have a right to believe scripture or not.

You talk about choice, please give the scriptures above which do not give you that choice?

Mat 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

They could of said "NO"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:
"You rightly say that the disciples were given power by Jesus. Why would you make the leap to they must have been born again? Judas was also one of those disciples who the scripture declares was given power. Do you believe Judas was born again?"

GE:
For me the 'trouble' lies with one's concept of 'born again'. I don't understand 'regeneration' as a once for all one's life subjective experience, but the objective deed of God upon the soul of one dead in sin to live unto God: BY every day dying to oneself and in 'regeneration' to crucify the old man of self. Faith throughout plays its vital part - GOD, is the One who does not do HIS work (in us), without faith. He whoever God thus has started a good work in, is regenerated and justified and has everlasting life. His faith may be however weak and wavering; but God's faithfulness is sure. Hou epleonasen heh hamartia, hypereperisseysen heh charies! Praise God!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

mark1:
"Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

GE:
How do you see in this Word of God, 'free choice' to either believe / obey or not to believe / obey? I must be blind but I see in it: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness! "Man cannot serve two masters", is another Word of God to the same effect! God leaves you NO 'choice' in this; if He did, how can He hold you responsible? If He gave us the 'freedom' to either choose for sin or for obedience, He could not turn around and blame us for choosing 'wrong'?! No, this LAW of God is no choice of ours; it is GOD'S WARNING of "The Law of: Sin, and: Death!" In other words, You MAY NOT! In fact, poor man, you, CANNOT! Try, and see: "that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness!" Invariably the outcome is the same.

 

[DHK]

Neither.

They were "magicians" 1.an entertainer who is skilled in producing illusion by sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; conjurer.

Exd 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

They did "in like manner" not "just as Moses did by the power of God"

They did it with their "enchantments" which is "trickery".

But none of this has anything to do with Jesus giving Judas power to perform miracles. So my question is still unanswered.

Please do not be deceived here:
There are magicians and there are "magicians."
One has an audience of children and plays innocent little tricks by sleight of hand.
The other is deeply involved in the occult. They are diviners, witches, sorcerers, astrologists, etc.--the very ones that Saul ordered to be killed, as the Lord so commanded by the law. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
He did not allow sorcery (the occult) of any kind within the nation of Israel.
Rev.21:8 ...And all sorcerers...shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns forever and ever.

These were the magicians, Jannes and Jambres, that stood before Pharaoh, and before Moses. Their power was from Satan.
I don't believe that Christ gave Judas power. We have no evidence of that. There is nothing in the Bible that says that Judas performed any miracles. It is only an assumption. Even if he did, it would have been by Satan's hand, not by the hand of God. God does not give power to unregenerate people. But Satan can do miracles also. He is not limited, but rather only limited by what God allows him to do.
The question here is not Judas. That is a red herring.
The question is the other disciples.
They were given power (authority) on two different occasions to heal the sick and even raise the dead. This was well before the death of Christ. Would Christ give such power to an unsaved person, a person outside of the family of God, and thus a person who is not born again.

Let's be perfectly clear here. There are only two families here. You are either a member of one or the other. Jesus made it very plain about whose family the Pharisees belonged to:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--You are of your father the devil.
Did the disciples have the devil as their father, or was God their father?
Were they born again into the family of God?

If they weren't, then why did Christ teach them to pray in this manner:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
--They had to be born into the family of God in order to address God as their Father.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

mark1:
"Mat 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

They could of said "NO"!"

GE:
They said what they said by that 'Law' of inevitability we have just looked at: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Man, Jesus had seen and had known and had loved and had saved these poor sinners LONG before they have heard of Him. The way they now reacted they could only do by the power of His saving grace.

The SDA's have a book of Mrs EG White, called, "Steps to Christ". When I was young I memorised large portions of it, and thought it really 'inspired'! Now that God granted me a little more wisdom it has become all legalism to me. Now I would suggest a title or recipy for saving faith, "Steps by Christ to me" (or better still, "Strides by Christ after me"), after which, I shall follow in his steps, every step with Christ, and in Him until that glorious day of His Coming.

 

[mark1]

mark1:
"Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

GE:
How do you see in this Word of God, 'free choice' to either believe / obey or not to believe / obey? I must be blind but I see in it: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness! "Man cannot serve two masters", is another Word of God to the same effect! God leaves you NO 'choice' in this; if He did, how can He hold you responsible? If He gave us the 'freedom' to either choose for sin or for obedience, He could not turn around and blame us for choosing 'wrong'?! No, this LAW of God is no choice of ours; it is GOD'S WARNING of "The Law of: Sin, and: Death!" In other words, You MAY NOT! In fact, poor man, you, CANNOT! Try, and see: "that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness!" Invariably the outcome is the same.

It is because of the choice, God give you in this, that He can hold you responsible. If you had "no" choice, then how could you be responsible, for someone else, caused you to yeild your members in whichever direction you lended them.

I find you hard to understand at times, but I take from this that the ones who obeyed Satan, could not help it, and those who obeyed God, could not help it. Neither one had any "input" into who they lended their members.

So, this would make you a believer that God is the Author of Sin. In other words, those who rape, pedofile, kill were all authored by God. If I am wrong, please tell me. Does man not have not control over what he does.

Let me ask you, does God control how you will die also? According to you, He controls how you live, and who you shall serve, who and what, you will lend your members to. Does He control how you die also?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mark1: Does He control how you die also?

HP: Good questions and response. Do the millions of pre-born infants come to mind? Are we to suppose that the murder of those millions of innocents are all in God’s orchestrated plan? There is not a more heinous blight to paint upon the character of a Holy and Just God than GE paints with his denial of free will. He should have listened to his father.

 

[steaver]

Please do not be deceived here:
There are magicians and there are "magicians."
One has an audience of children and plays innocent little tricks by sleight of hand.

Now you are really reaching brother. I am hardly a "little child" and I have had many "magicians" play tricks before me and it appeared very real. Many will then explain how they created the illusion. It isn't just "little children tricks".

These were the magicians, Jannes and Jambres, that stood before Pharaoh, and before Moses. Their power was from Satan.

This is purely conjecture into this passage of scripture. Taking the scripture at face value leads nowhere else but to believe they played a trick on the audience making it look like they too turned sticks into snakes. I have consulted commentaries on this and they as well say the same.

I don't believe that Christ gave Judas power. We have no evidence of that. There is nothing in the Bible that says that Judas performed any miracles. It is only an assumption. Even if he did, it would have been by Satan's hand, not by the hand of God.

I cannot accept your view here. I must believe what the scripture declares when it states that Jesus gave the TWELVE power. I don't know how you can say it is I who is doing the assuming here. And I would be very careful about attributing Judas' power to the power of satan when the scripture clearly declares it was given by Jesus.

God does not give power to unregenerate people.

This is your stance that you have been taking but with no actual scripture that says any such thing. I actually gave scripture which states that God has given power to unregenerated people, Jesus' disciples, Judas we know for a fact. So I must stick with the scriptures on this one brother.

"Born again" is the "New Thing" God promised to do found in the OT and proclaimed by Jesus' ministry here on earth. This was not implemented until after Jesus completed His work and was glorified (Jhn 7:38-39).

David prophetically cried...Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

If David was already "born again" why does he cry out to God for God to create a new heart and right spirit within him? Does David want to be reborn again and again and again?

I have taken a position that the rebirth was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification and I have provided scripture as to why I believe what I believe. No one has refuted those scriptures NOR has anyone given scripture which supports their views that born again had been being performed by God ever since the days of Adam and Eve.

The question here is not Judas. That is a red herring.
The question is the other disciples.

No my brother, Judas is no red herring. The scripture is clear. Jesus gave power to the TWELVE. To now say it is the "others" and not Judas would be the red herring or more conjecture which is not supported in the scriptures.

Let's be perfectly clear here. There are only two families here. You are either a member of one or the other. Jesus made it very plain about whose family the Pharisees belonged to:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--You are of your father the devil.
Did the disciples have the devil as their father, or was God their father?
Were they born again into the family of God?

If they weren't, then why did Christ teach them to pray in this manner:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
--They had to be born into the family of God in order to address God as their Father.

Don't you see the pattern of your position is to say "well, they must have been". This is all assumption. I gave scriptures that point directly to the rebirth as my support for what the rebirth is and when it occurs.

Jesus came and taught about the Kingdom of God and then performed the sacrifice and was glorified so the ministry of regeneration by the Holy Spirit could be implemented. So a bride could be prepared through regeneration for Himself by God.

Jesus also taught the woman at the well to ask and receive the living water, but she couldn't yet right? She could believe and she could ask, but she had to wait for the living water until Jesus finished His work and was glorified.

Jesus taught many things concerning the Kingdom of God, anyone who believed in Jesus also had God as their Father even before regeneration was implemented. In the scripture you reference Jesus is speaking figuratively. If you say He is not, that He is speaking about actual spiritual birth, then we would have to apply it both ways and when He tells those wanting to kill Him that they are of their father the devil then we would have to say that these are born of satan and no one is born of satan, satan gives birth to no one. They figuratively have satan as their father because they are doing the things satan does. If this passage declares anything at all about the rebirth it would have to be understood in light of (Jhn 7:38-39) that the rebirth has yet to take place, but those who believe in Him will know God as their Father and will see God as their Father.

 

[mark1]

Now you are really reaching brother. I am hardly a "little child" and I have had many "magicians" play tricks before me and it appeared very real. Many will then explain how they created the illusion. It isn't just "little children tricks".



This is purely conjecture into this passage of scripture. Taking the scripture at face value leads nowhere else but to believe they played a trick on the audience making it look like they too turned sticks into snakes. I have consulted commentaries on this and they as well say the same.



I cannot accept your view here. I must believe what the scripture declares when it states that Jesus gave the TWELVE power. I don't know how you can say it is I who is doing the assuming here. And I would be very careful about attributing Judas' power to the power of satan when the scripture clearly declares it was given by Jesus.



This is your stance that you have been taking but with no actual scripture that says any such thing. I actually gave scripture which states that God has given power to unregenerated people, Jesus' disciples, Judas we know for a fact. So I must stick with the scriptures on this one brother.

"Born again" is the "New Thing" God promised to do found in the OT and proclaimed by Jesus' ministry here on earth. This was not implemented until after Jesus completed His work and was glorified (Jhn 7:38-39).

David prophetically cried...Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

If David was already "born again" why does he cry out to God for God to create a new heart and right spirit within him? Does David want to be reborn again and again and again?

I have taken a position that the rebirth was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification and I have provided scripture as to why I believe what I believe. No one has refuted those scriptures NOR has anyone given scripture which supports their views that born again had been being performed by God ever since the days of Adam and Eve.



No my brother, Judas is no red herring. The scripture is clear. Jesus gave power to the TWELVE. To now say it is the "others" and not Judas would be the red herring or more conjecture which is not supported in the scriptures.



Don't you see the pattern of your position is to say "well, they must have been". This is all assumption. I gave scriptures that point directly to the rebirth as my support for what the rebirth is and when it occurs.

Jesus came and taught about the Kingdom of God and then performed the sacrifice and was glorified so the ministry of regeneration by the Holy Spirit could be implemented. So a bride could be prepared through regeneration for Himself by God.

Jesus also taught the woman at the well to ask and receive the living water, but she couldn't yet right? She could believe and she could ask, but she had to wait for the living water until Jesus finished His work and was glorified.

Jesus taught many things concerning the Kingdom of God, anyone who believed in Jesus also had God as their Father even before regeneration was implemented. In the scripture you reference Jesus is speaking figuratively. If you say He is not, that He is speaking about actual spiritual birth, then we would have to apply it both ways and when He tells those wanting to kill Him that they are of their father the devil then we would have to say that these are born of satan and no one is born of satan, satan gives birth to no one. They figuratively have satan as their father because they are doing the things satan does. If this passage declares anything at all about the rebirth it would have to be understood in light of (Jhn 7:38-39) that the rebirth has yet to take place, but those who believe in Him will know God as their Father and will see God as their Father.

You in no way, can deny that the Holy Ghost had not already come, before Jesus died. The scripture will not allow you to say that. Now it had not come in some fashion, and that was "power to prophesy unto all nations". Speak in other tongues.

Some were for sure already filled with the Holy Ghost.
Also, they were already "saved".

John 7:
39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

We know by scripture that the Holy Ghost was already given, but apparently not in the fashion Jesus was speaking of, that “out of your belly shall flow wells of living waters”.

On the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Ghost, but not for “salvation” but to give them “Power” to prophesy unto all nations. In other words the “word” would go into all the world to every nation and the word is that “living water”.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Can’t you see that the “bride” is the church and will prophesy unto all nations the word of God, which leads to water of life.

So many believe that on Pentecost was when “salvation” came, but untrue, they were already “saved”. It was the day they received “power” as those who received Christ “received power to become the sons of God”, they received power to prophesy unto “all” nations, that which had been prophesied by Joel.

How can you deny that the Holy Ghost had already come when Scripture plainly says that it had. The Holy Ghost is a part of the Trinity. You do believe in the “Trinity” don’t you. The Holy Ghost had no beginning and no end.

Gal. 4:
28: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29: But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Please explain, how that Isaac was born of the Spirit?



Jhn 4:10

​

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Can’t you see the woman would have been a recipient of that “living water”, but as the following in John 7:39, out of your bellies shall flow wells of living water.

Jhn 7:38

​

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


Act 2:41

​

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, I agree with some of your last post as it was written, and as far as I understand your position from that post concerning Judas. Still I am having trouble trying to understand your position that no one was born again until after the ascension. (as I understand you must believe) I fully understand the change in requirements for those desiring eternal life in the OT, and that which was required of those in the NT concerning the ceremonial law, but what is different about the repentance and change of heart towards sin that was required in the OT and in the NT? What is the real significant difference between being ‘born again’ in the NT by receiving the life of Christ by faith, and the hope of eternal life granted to those in the OT apart from the obvious commands by God for those in the OT which bound them fast to ceremonial law to be performed year after year? Could they not entertain a certain hope of eternal life in the OT? Did not salvation come by either by looking forward to His sacrifice or looking back to a finished sacrifice, in relationship to entertaining a certain hope of eternal life? Are not being born again and salvation synonymous in terms as far as being in possession of a certain hope of eternal life?

Where I do see a vast difference between that which was granted to all in an outpouring of God’s Spirit in a way never seemingly granted to every believer alike, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This special anointing seemed to rest on a mere few in the OT when it is promised to every believer in the NT.

What I see as the real shame is the attitude of many in the Church today. Having been promised the help of the Holy Spirit to overcome the world flesh and the enemy of our souls, so many seem content to live in the dregs of sin, even to the point of denying the power of God to keep one from sin. They take on a form of godliness in their speech, but deny the power of God to really change and keep their lives changed. Not only do they refuse to enter into a life made ‘free from sin’ themselves, but they hinder others from that freedom by their constant drumbeat that we all must remain sinners. While they should be entering in themselves, and admonishing others to enter into the life of purity promised by God, they are busy at the task of throwing stones at those that have set their hearts and minds living on that plane of sincere and steadfast obedience with the promised help of the Holy Spirit.

The question remains in my mind as to why some, who deny the possibility of living a holy life by the promised help of the Holy Spirit, would see any great difference between the life to be lived in the OT and that afforded to us in the NT via the outpouring of God’s Spirit? They both, to a large degree and apart from a few exceptions, seemed somewhat powerless to overcome sin on a consistent basis according to many that I hear today preaching and teaching in our pulpits. What earthly good is an outpouring of God’s Spirit upon our lives if it is powerless to free us from living in sin? That is what I see as the pressing question for the church today.

 

[bound]

You know Quakers believe that we all have within us that 'still small voice' which calls us to the foot of the Cross. When we become a 'friend' of that voice we know that we are saved. It is only when we are in rebellion to that 'still small voice' that we 'fear' and 'despise' God and thus become His enemy. It is not about rigorous legalism or puritanical moralism that saves but in maintaining 'friendship' with God. This also changes radically the pursuit of holiness from a legal or moral endeavor for perfection to a more holistic life in the Spirit. In a certain sense, we've not gotten away from a Catholic pursuit of legalistic holiness if we simply continue to assume we are to somehow establish our own requirements of what it is to be holy and Godly. We know from Paul that true holiness has not law... it is beyond any systematic articulation. The beauty of the New Covenant is in it's simplicity and there also lies the difficulty. The Wise loose sight of this and ultimately stray which is why we find it so difficult. A pursuit of virtue is found in our daily lives and it is in our daily lives that we find ourselves 'friends' or 'foes' toward God. If we reduce this to score-cards we have ultimately reentered into a life of man-made holiness. We need to work past this I think.

I'm not a Quaker but I really can appreciate the sentiment of their teaching in this. :applause:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound: It is not about rigorous legalism or puritanical moralism

HP: I have known over the years many within the Quakers or that are closely associated with them, and I can tell you that what you might be calling “rigorous legalism or puritanical moralism’ is another’s mere necessitated obedience. Certainly there is a great variety in the Quaker movement today, and who knows what is being taught, but I can assure you that in years gone by, holiness and heart purity were never divorced from friendship with God. One is not acting as any friend of God when in the commission of open rebellion against Him. I have never heard any of the Quakers I have spoken to or been around ever speak in terms of being in friendship with God while living in a state of disobedience and sin.

Friendship with God saves no one. God’s grace and mercy as evidenced in the blood of Jesus Christ saves us. Friendship, or being at one with His commands, is a condition of salvation, but has no power to save in and of itself. The same goes for repentance and faith. They cannot save anyone in and of themselves, but they are clear conditions of salvation. Conditions of salvation are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ and not ‘that for the sake of.’ We are not saved for the sake of friendship with God or obedience to His commands, but neither will we be saved apart from them either.

I know full well that I may be preaching to the choir ion at least some of this post, but thought this might need to be clarified.

 

[bound]

HP: I have known over the years many within the Quakers or that are closely associated with them, and I can tell you that what you might be calling “rigorous legalism or puritanical moralism’ is another’s mere necessitated obedience. Certainly there is a great variety in the Quaker movement today, and who knows what is being taught, but I can assure you that in years gone by, holiness and heart purity were never divorced from friendship with God. One is not acting as any friend of God when in the commission of open rebellion against Him. I have never heard any of the Quakers I have spoken to or been around ever speak in terms of being in friendship with God while living in a state of disobedience and sin.

Friendship with God saves no one. God’s grace and mercy as evidenced in the blood of Jesus Christ saves us. Friendship, or being at one with His commands, is a condition of salvation, but has no power to save in and of itself. The same goes for repentance and faith. They cannot save anyone in and of themselves, but they are clear conditions of salvation. Conditions of salvation are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ and not ‘that for the sake of.’ We are not saved for the sake of friendship with God or obedience to His commands, but neither will we be saved apart from them either.

I know full well that I may be preaching to the choir ion at least some of this post, but thought this might need to be clarified.

He is friends with us way before we are friends with Him. Grace travels on that road of friendship. I still think you are creating a greater deal of complexity in your repose than is necessary. The only 'real' condition of salvation, in my mind, is repentance. I'm thinking of the Good Thief as an example but some kind of man-made perfectionism doesn't seem, to me, to do a 'condition of salvation'. This still seems legalistic to me. I think any established 'code' of moral conduct falls short of the New Covenant of Christ as outlined by Paul.

I'm with you on this but I'm skeptical on establishing too rigid of a system for our faith which is ultimately beyond any system because it rests in love... of God toward us and of us toward God. I have no doubt that we fall short of any moral or ethical comparison with God's holiness but I honestly believe we are climbing up the wrong tree here as this leads now a more or less Pharisaic Spirituality. Holiness isn't going to be Perfected in this world but the world to come. We struggle with this reality until that time that we rest in His Peace with Hope and Trust. That is not a license to sin but it is also not a condemnation if we are not perfect and sinless because we know we have a mediator in heaven, Christ Jesus. Our Openness to God, to that degree we are given, is ours to explore, nurture and grow in the poverty of our humanity. Seek our limits and we will find ourselves before God. We will never stand worthily but we most also not stand condemned. It is the edge of a knife we walk as Children of God seeking and growing but not judging nor condemning. When we draw lines and say this is enough and that is not enough for salvation we establish what is not ours to do. The Bible is full of 'conditionals' it is true but let us stand in Hope not in our own established Holiness but in God's Compassion and Mercy.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound: Do you understand where I am coming from?

HP: How does trusting moment by moment in the promises of God to enable us to live free from sin equate in your estimation a ‘more or less Pharisaic Spirituality?” Is there some sin or temptation that is so strong that God will not provide a way of escape if we are trusting in Him, believing in Him to do exactly what He promises? What do you mean that holiness will not be perfected in this world? Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” Are the following verses of no effect? 2Co 7:1 ¶ Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Could part of our problem be today due to the failure of those in the pulpit to perfect the saints as they should by lowering the standards of holiness to the notion that we can never be espected to live as God promised to help us live?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Are we becoming so keenly aware, and even almost paranoid at times, of “Pharisaic Spirituality” that we are beginning to deny the reality of true spirituality and holiness towards God? Does the reality of one twisting spirituality into some selfish interest negate the fact of true spirituality stemming from a heart of love towards God and man? That is at the heart of the issues being raised I believe.