Young Fundamentalist Survey Results now available

I would be more embarrassed or apologetic if I had intended my statement about Paul33 as inflammatory hyperbole. I didn't.

Truth is, whether I am in the fundamental baptist forum or the Christian colleges section of this site, there always seems to be a thread where he is criticizing Bob Jones. Maybe this is a fluke. I allowed in my original comment that I am not a compulsive BB reader, thus my sampling may not be representative. (I certainly don't frequent the other sections of the boards, except when I jump into the politics section occasionally to promote free markets.)

You peg me wrongly if you see me as a shill for BJU. On the contrary, I weigh in because I think that the very fundamentalist tendency of criticizing Christian ministries in public forums is unhealthy. The Scriptural emphasis on unity, especially before the unsaved (as seen in the NT prohibition against suing other believers), suggests to me that harsh criticism of fellow Christians in a public forum should be approached very cautiously. There are certainly times when individuals such as Joel Osteen stray so far from orthodoxy that a public rebuke is necessary for the sake of the gospel.

It is this desire for unity before the lost that makes me very hesitant to review other schools--PCC, Liberty, you-name-it . . . --on public forums. I might occasionally offer some broad thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of a place, but if I have criticisms or concerns I address them with the person considering the school through PM or email.

Paul33 seems to allow that BJU has changed quite a bit since his problems there. Praise the Lord if that is the case. He even gives the impression that it might be a good place today for someone who wants to study the Word and grow in Christlikeness.

However, if Paul33 believes BJU's problems are grave enough to outweigh the counterbalancing desire for unity, I would suggest that he write a new thread on the issue. He could make it comprehensive, including his problems with BJU, the ways he benefitted from BJU, and the way things have changed since he was there. This would give some perspective to his other comments which tend to be overwhelmingly negative. When BJU comes up in the future he could refer interested parties back to that thread as a fuller, more balanced treatment of the subject.

If Paul33's desire is to reform BJU, I am sympathetic. Institutions need people that will lovingly challenge them to be more biblical. If, however, BJU has changed the policy that Paul33 describes, and if, as he suggests, BJU has largely come around to his views on other things, then reformation cannot be the goal. At this point to constantly bring up a bad policy that is no longer in place is both unproductive and uncharitable. It gives the appearance that Paul33 just has an axe to grind. I know he doesn't want to send this message, so I would encourage him to consider new ways of exerting his influence.

Superdave, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on diversity. I often see the party spirit that I Corinthians warns against when people begin to talk about their pet schools.

 

I can't see how this is false guilt. I am increasingly of the opinion that I can find no legitimate reason for kissing unless you are married, or engaged to be married (at the very least, and then only limited). One of the reasons there is so much immorality in our society is because we have drastically departed from God's one flesh standard of marriage. Many young people start down that road and rightly experience guilt for doing somethign they should have never done?

What good does kissing do for a couple that is not married or at least engaged?

AGain, nothing necessarily false about this. If their conscience is convicted that something is wrong, then they should not do it. Given the survey's responder's, my bet is that most of these people were enrolled in a school that prohibited certain types of music, and their listening to it brought legitimate guilt for violation.

 

I agree with that statement, however, that has no bearing on whether the guilt is false.

Fruit of the poison tree to use legal terminology. An unbiblical or extra-biblical principle operated on by the conscience does not produce a correct standard.

There has been and continues to be a false set of standards placed on IFB young people by failing to educate them regarding the differences in theological, institutional and individual standards, and it has produced much of what is considered "bad" about fundamentalism. Plus the fact that many in leadership make no distinction themselves.

We can argue about what is or is not appropriate from the standpoint of standards, but there were many responses that I found myself hoping were college pranks. I will compile a complete listing of the ones that prompted my response in the first place, there's got to be a hundred pages of responses.

 

YOu can speak for yourself, but I never had any difficulty understanding the difference between individual and institutional standards. I have never been around a leader who didn't make those distinctions, and make them publicly.

The truth is that something is wrong if you do while governed by an institutional standard that forbids it. Any guilt arising from that is proper guilt. I don't think many in that survey were talking about anything else.

 

Than you are fortunate, that is not IMO representative. In many cases I don't think its even intentional, it is a consequence of never adapting your methods once a child is no longer 2.

I agree that breaking institutional standards when you agreed to submit to them deserves appropriate guilt.

 

Perhaps a deeper question arises ... Why is your experience representative and mine not?

 

May I chime in? Im an IFB, and my experience would parallel Pastor Larry's. Ive been in an IFB college, with IFB students. Ive known kids who got mad at the rules and were bitter and all....yet I always understood the difference between a private versus institutional standard. The kids who did NOT understand it, were, IMO, choosing not to understand. This was the same for the IFB high school I went to. There was always a subset of kids who just did not want to obey the rules, although the leadership did their best to represent the rules as an institutional standard. There were just some who wouldn't accept it.

IMO, many of the kids who would respond to a survey like this one would have an axe to grind, so you are going to get skewed results. The other kids are out there studying, or involved in their ministries.

 

I would disagree with your last statement. It would be unfortuante to conclude that only malcontents took the survey. No doubt there are many who took the survey who are studying and involved in their ministries.

 

I am very glad that your experience paralleled PL's, but I would disagree with your assessment of this survey. This survey was intentionally spread out to a diverse group of young fundamentalists, and it was a scientific survey, you can't discount the results simply because they don't agree with your particular experience given your circumstances.

When I say that Pastor Larry's experience may not be representative, It is not to be contrasted with my own, but added to! I am not limiting the breadth of how people teach and respond to standards. I am saying that while there are many leaders who appropriately teach and develop biblical standards, there are those who do not, and in my particular experience, I would not consider it to be a minority of those I have seen. That is anecdotal and experiential, just like both of your experiences. I am simply pointing out that there may be, I think certainly there are those outside of your particular realms of experience perhaps that do not develop standards or teach them to their children or their churches using anything that can be considered a reasonable philosophy of biblical standards. I know some of these kids were reacting to rules and regulations, but there are those out there who have been taught in a careless manner, and have responded to unbiblical teaching by wanting to chuck everything. An appropriate response? No, but real nonetheless. I studied, I was an am involved in ministry, I have dealt with my anger at ridiculous institutional standards being preached as holy living, and I responded to this survey. Don't ignore reality just so things fit into your perspective.

 

Pastor and superdave, I never said ONLY malcontents took the survey. Come on! I said many. I also said it was only my opinion. I would never ever make a blanket statement like ONLY those dissatisfied with IFB would vote in a survey like that.

Superdave, I understand that you are talking about adding your perspective to what he was saying. Let me add, when I recounted my own experience please remember that I mentioned the fact that I noticed there was always a group of kids dissatisfied with the standards and rules, etc. I knew these kids just as well as I knew any of the other kids. Ive always been one of those types that gets "stuck" between groups....I was considered a good kid, but I had friends in both groups. I didn't always handle that fact right, by which I mean they could confide in me and I did not do anything about it. I tried to handle things on my own. But thats beside the point.
While I was not one of the disgruntled kids, I KNEW those who were. And they told me WHY they were. In many MANY cases they were dissatisfied because their parents held strictly to the church's or school's standards when within sight of the campus. However, when at home things were much different. There was no consistency between home and church for those kids. IMO, much of the blame would lie at the parent's doors.

Im not saying that all church leaders explain themselves well. No, Ive seen church leaders make mistakes, and not explain themselves well, or at all. But Ive also seen that when the parents were grounded in their own convictions, and gave their kids a consistent home life, it didn't matter so much what the church leaders were like.

 

Fortunately I have been able to turn some of those students around over the years. They are in bondage. They do not know the freedom Christ gives.

So often the students who have troubles are those who come from rigid, legalistic, judgmental homes and also homes where anything goes.

Years ago when I was teaching in a secular high school one of those legalists was bad-mouthing her daughter in front of me. After I had enough of her mouth I asked her, "What did your mother say when you were younger? The same thing." I really don't think she got the clue. She was so focused on how her daughter was not just like her rather than setting a good example of a godly woman with love and acceptance.

 

I had been in business many years and was embarrassed being around some of those mal-contents who claimed to be believers. Some of those mal-contents would claim to be believers out of one side of their mouth and cheat customers at the same time.

On the flip side of the coin. One time I was doing some work on a family's home and noticed how I was able to share my faith with so many other contractors and workers. I had never experienecd that to such a degree before. I came to the conclusion that the big difference was the family living there. They were godly people.

 

I guess sometimes, or maybe oftentimes, we get so focused on the leadership of the churches that we start blaming them for things that are really the fault of home lives.
It means alot to me as a parent that I raise my little people with a good example, acceptance, teaching them how to handle it when they fail, and doing my best to explain to them why we have the standards and convictions that we do have, as well as teaching them to be loving towards all people regardless of their standards or convictions.

 

Sometimes the problem in IFB churches that the pastor is a "strong " leader and some of the adults follow him wherever he goes right or wrong,partly because they don't know the difference themselves.

 

Id agree there too, POBill.

We figure our doctrine is right so we quit checking the Book to be sure we are STILL right.

 

Somebody is always doing it to ya! Well, that's today's mindset. What have we done to our kids? There are influences, sure, but everyone bears his own responsibility for choices. What have they done to themselves? Bosh, I can't agree that we have warped the next generation of Fundamentalists. The problem is that they are too much the product of their times and the culture interfaced with their own personal choices. Whom do the older fundies blame? Their parents? So, their parents can blame their parents all the way back to Adam. Yeah, that's the guy who got us in this mess--NO--it was really the woman. Yeah, it was the woman. But, it really was the snake who tempted the woman and he doesn't have a leg to stand on.