Your Actions Tell What You Are

It wasn't intended to be an argument per se. Just a curious observation as to why something so important is not made more clear and not subject to interpretive principles.

 

I'm not sure which interpretive principles you are referring to. I would say that the majority of churches have been using the wrong interpretive principles, and that the interpretive principles of ME straigten out much of the confusion that arises from other principles. As to why some see it and others do not, I can only speak from my personal experience that when it was first shown to me I did not see it either because I did not want to see it. It took quite some time before I could admit that indeed the bible was telling me, a saved by the blood of Christ believer, that I was going to be judged for my works.

 

Andy that is why often those that believe this about Scripture will be called Gnostics. Because others see us as having some special knowledge and we are the only ones that have it, but that is not true, because these Truths are laid out throughout the OT and the NT. But yes one must have eyes to see and ears to hear.

As to your first question I think the Bible makes it quite clear as to the distinction between eternal salvation (salvation of the spirit) and kingdom salvation (salvation of the soul).

The reason that it doesn't sound right from the get go is because the message has been so distorted and twisted for so long now that it is all but unrecognizable, because of the way Christendom has interwoven the two messages that were originally meant to be distinct and separate.

Again I addressed this somewhat in my previous post. Works has been placed into the eternal salvation message when it doesn't belong there at all. Scripture makes that extremely clear. Works is outside of this picture, but man had decided to place works within this scope in one of two ways. That is why the picture is clouded.

It is my prayer that the Holy Spirit will use this to spark your interest and that you will at least study the matter out. Whether or not you come to the same conclusions is not up to me. But most people won't even bother to study the matter out.

If you are interested I would be more than happy to visit with you or anyone else for that matter offline in a one on one situation. Just PM me or email me.

 

Unless a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, nothing else is needed. Not by works.
Judgment Day is the day when sentencing takes place, all men are judged guilty. Some, those condemned and unforgiven in Adam's sin, will face the Judge, my Father, to hear what punishment they face for their own sins while the forgiven will stand in complete righteousness. Another took ours sins upon Himself, all of them, our guilt and shame and the penalty for them removed, removing at the same time the condemnation that came through Adam to us. We are free in the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Why James, for we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do? Eph 2:10.

He is our Father. One cannot become a child of the Devil if one is a child of God. A child of God has had his sins forgiven and forgotten. He is loved by God but free willers do not believe in love, love keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Cor 13:5.

Heb 13:5 ...God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." The only threat towards us emanating from God is the threat of a Good Father to His very precious children, nowhere is scripture used to instill fear in His Bride but love is on His Mind and love never fails. 1 Cor 13:8.

That is my Christian faith. I believe Jesus died for my sins because He loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20. I believe and have confidence of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.

I trust my life to Him, in that I am saved. I take my salvation for granted and it has grown into certainty. Take your selfrighteous works for what they merit realistically. So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " Lk 17:10.

If we congratulate ourselves on doing a good thing and we think we have some Kingdom points coming, and in truth we do for good things, then we should thank God that He has deemed us useful in His work because it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do? Eph 2:10.

We should aim to do good and ask God to work that in us. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

How can we merit anything but damnation from the Lord sinners that we are?

john.

 

Personally, I don't see how it could be any more clear.

Of course, "gospel" simply means good news. There is more than one gospel in Scriptures. There's the gospel of salvation, which is not dealt with in any great detail, because it's simple and straight to the point. However, the gospel of the Kingdom, which is the gospel that John the baptizer and Jesus the Christ were preaching, is not a simple. It involves much more than "believe on the Lord Jesus". It requires believing in the present tense; faithful living; being righteous.

One thing that I think has clouded the minds of many people is that they treat several things synonymously that are not synonymous: "Saved" and "Christian" are two different things. A saved person is born into the family; born from above. A Christian is someone who behaves Christ-like.

"Lost" and "unsaved" are not synonymous although most people today equate the two. I know I did for a lot of years. But, if they are synonymous, then you can lose your salvation, and that contradicts Scriptures in other places. "Lost" is "perishing"; it's losing one's life. You have to have it to lose it. So, only a person who is born from above can be lost. Do you think you can lose your salvation?

"Hell" and "the lake of fire" are not synonymous. That's Catholic doctrine that has permeated society as a whole. (Although, reading old, old Catholic doctrine, I think even they knew they weren't the same in the past.)

How hard do you have to work to get saved? How hard do you have to work to stay saved? How hard do you have to work to prove you're saved?

If you think you have to work to be saved, then you won't see works as being a problem. But, if you think that you are saved solely by the finished work of Jesus on the cross, then where do the works come into play?

 

Confusion such as the OSAS argument become moot when one sees that Scripture flat-out states that once you believe, you're in the family. Period. No if's, and's, or but's.

However, you can lose your aionian life. Unfortunately, very few people look at the meaning of the Greek, and look only at the modern meaning of the words that are used to translate it, and even fail to look at what those words meant when the KJV was translated.

God is not the author of confusion, but even on the issue of OSAS, there is much confusion.

James, would you say that you didn't want to because you had been so indoctrinated by the traditions of men, or because it's a hard teaching, or a combination of the two?

 

You might want to break out your Bible and read it again.

Unless a man be born from above, he cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom.

How is one born from above? Believe on the Lord Jesus.

But, unless a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter (be a partaker) the Kingom.

Works.

Everyone who is born from above (saved) will see the Kingdom. Only those who follow in obedience will possess the land flowing with milk and honey, as the Israelites did Canaan.

This is the picture that is given to us. The children of Israel were in the promised land before they even stepped foot out their doors in Goshen. (Genesis 15:18) This was based on nothing other than being born into the family.

But, what did they have to do to possess the better part of their inheritance; the land flowing with milk and honey? They had to do some stuff! They had to obey Jehovah, they had to be baptized, they had to be obedient while wandering in the wilderness, they had to be faithful. Most of them fell short. Even Moses came up short as a picture.

Remember, the Passover lamb was slain for the entire nation. Everyone could partake of it. But, the blood was only shed for the firstborn. All were in the family, but the firstborn were special.

 

You are forgetting that there are two judgments? One is for believers at the start of the kingdom, and one is a general judgment at the end of the kingdom. Some believers will not stand at the judgment seat of Christ, but they will indeed be saved at the great white throne.

You are only looking at one side of it. Remember that it is God himself who is pleased to reward His servants who obey Him, and who are we to deny Him the pleasure? When we do right, we should acknowledge that it is God working in us. We should also expect to be rewarded for our works whether they are good or bad.

 

I would say it is both, but probably more the latter. My soul recoiled at the thought of being held accountable for sins, precisely because I knew I had sins worthy of judgment. Even now I cannot say I have nothing that will cause me shame at the judgment seat of Christ, and it is now that I hope in His mercy and trust those promises like this one:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

That good work is not my eternal salvation, for that work was finished 2000 years ago. Praise God I can know that work is finished and not have to be unsure of my eternal state, and I can trust that God is willing and able to bring me into His kingdom too.

 

Are we talking about the Lot who was the nephew of Abraham?

The Lot who got drunk after the fire fell from heaven on Sodom and Gomorrah?

The drunk Lot who then had relations with his daughters?

If that isn’t backslidden then what other name should we give it?

HankD

 

Well, he was obviously never Lot to begin with...:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

If I remember correctly, it was Lots DAUGHTERS who got Lot drunk.
Actaully they conspired amongest themselves to get him drunk. But we don't the means by which they actually accomplished this. Since they were conspiring however I doubt it was "Hey dad, I bet you can't get so drunk you forget who we are."

And just what was the reason they needed to get him drunk - so THEY could have relations with their father to bear children as they thought there was no one left alive on earth. (that must have been one horrific destruction to imply such an impression on them). However, this was NOT what Lot desired, that being to have relations with his daughters.

Was Lot a perfect man, no. Was he righteous in the eyes of God, Yes.

 

I would say Lot's problems began when he pitched his tent toward Sodom.

 

Allan, I'm sure you already know there is no verse that emphatically states "Lot lived in sin". A plain reading of the story alludes to this.

Gen 13:9 Is not the whole land before you? Separate yourself from me. If you take the left hand, then I will go to the right, or if you take the right hand, then I will go to the left."
Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that the Jordan Valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)
Gen 13:11 So Lot chose for himself all the Jordan Valley, and Lot journeyed east. Thus they separated from each other.

Gen 19:8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."

Gen 19:17 And as they brought them out, one said, "Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away."
Gen 19:18 And Lot said to them, "Oh, no, my lords.

Sure sounds like a fruit bearing righteous person!

 

Whether he actively participated in their sin is almost moot. He did not separate himself and his family from them and he paid a dear price for it.

 

If anyone is captive in sin they should pray this prayer and wait on the Lord. PS 119:176 I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.

King David has been there with you. A man after God's own heart.

Hello Hope.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

This is a false gospel, It involves much more than "believe on the Lord Jesus".

No they are not synonymous because Jesus found those who were lost. He is the Good Shepherd. Born again and Christian are synonymous.

Bless you for having my interests at heart.

That's what I said.

That's what I said but how can he know of it if he cannot perceive it? Regeneration must precede faith.

And the world will be Israel and all the world a paradise and we and our children and our children's children will live and play in the presence of God forever and a day. I want nothing from me to influence my Father in anyway as He was more than impressed with my Brother and my Brother deserves any praise going and I know what is in a me.

So you don't mean, Unless a man be born from above, he cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom. Moses entered the Promised Land.

Man needs to perceive God but it's very impossible to perceive if God does not give the means for us to perceive Him with. But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:4 is addressing that lot you speak of and they could not understand after forty years of continuous miracles before their blind eyes.
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. It's quite plain and unextrodinary. The Israelites were not given the understanding they needed.

john.

 

Moses entered the promised land? I think I must have the wrong bible.

 

James.

Matt 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Which one you got? (I forgot who posted that the other day so I can't credit it. Thanks.)

john.

 

You can't use the OT as a guide to backsliding. They worshipped God in the Flesh and now we worship Him in
Spirit and Truth and have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. To compare us with them on backsliding is just completely wrong.

1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10: Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Also, they did know God but Glorified Him not.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

Ah, so you think Moses sneaked in during the transfiguration. Thats fine. Moses will indeed be in the kingdom. Moses' disqualification from entering the promised land was only a type of Christians being disqualified from entering the kingdom. The earthly promised land is a picture of the heavenly kingdom to come.

Deuteronomy 32:51-52
51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
52 Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 34:4-5
4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.