Your definition of 'easy believism'

Easy believism on its far left would be represented by ministries like Jack Hyles.

Everything is about getting someone to say a prayer and there is not much concern about the genuniness there after.

Salvation is not based on some prayer, but on taking Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. It may involve a prayer, but a prayer is only a prayer if it is not something done from the heart.

I as a soverign grace advocate believe God works that change in the heart of an individual and causes him to believe.

I believe as Ephesians 1 tells us that once we have believed we have the seal of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Spirit and we now belong to the Lord, whether we fully understand it or not.

While we must be careful to expose the Easy-believism errors of those like the Hyles camp, we must also be diligent in exposing the errors of those on the other side - Lordship advocates - one of the modern ones being John MacArthur.

Yes many Calvinists and others throughout the centuries have shared in this erroring view of salvation, regardless it must be exposed.

While extreme easy believism acknowledges no change in the life a believer, Lordship salvation makes demands of the intial salvation canidate that Bible does not.

Lordship advocates often speak of salvation more in terms of counting the cost than in coming to receive the free gift of God. The fact of the matter is that while salvation cost God his one and only Son, its given to us free with no strings attached.

But something does cost doesn't? - Don't we see that in New Testament? Yes. What costs is our effort to become like Christ - to be a good disciple. A good disciple is one behaves and acts exactly as his master, he follows his masters every way. A bad disciple is one who show little resemblance of his master, either because of willful neglect or other reasons.

The problem with Lordship salvation advocates is that they do not believe there is any such thing as a bad disciple - all disciples will be good, to greater or lesser degrees.

People like myself(who come between the two camps) believe it is possible for there to be all ranges of disciples, from a 1 to 10 - 1 being someone who truly trusts Christ, has some change in his life, but does not grow to the extant many Christians do. A 10 would be someone who is martyered for Christ. Lordship advocates would only believe in disciples in the upper ranges, like 7 to 10. A 1 in there view, cannot possibly be saved.

The main disagreement I have then with the Lordship group, is not over the fact of growth, for we agree there will be growth and some change if someone is saved, but I disagree as to the extant of the growth. I do not like the fact that some believers don't grow the way others do, but I will not say they are unsaved based on a list of things they have not understood or grown to.

MacArthur, a popular Lordship proponent, believes that if someone in fear of their life denys Christ they cannot be saved. I believe it is possible for a true believer who fears to deny Christ, but that belief has not been lost in his heart, as with Peter.

MacArthur believes if a Christian becomes stubborn to church discipline, this person can be wrote off as unsaved.

So while I don't believe salvation is based on some majic prayer, I also don't believe God gives a free gift with strings attached.

When we come to Christ, accepting him as our Lord(God) and Savior, we accept what he has saved us from, our sin, we acknowledge our sin and dependance on him and if we have done this in our heart and not simply with our lips, we are eternally saved.

From that point on, it is love of Christ that constrains us to live Godly lives, for there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

IFBReformer

 

Genuine belief in anything produces a change of attitude and behavior. Genuine belief in the person and work of Christ produces genuine repentance. If repentance is lacking then so is genuine belief.

Easy believism basically peddles another Christ... or maybe a partial Christ. It sells the Christ who died so we could go to heaven but not the one who commanded repentance and that we pick up our cross and follow Him. It doesn't even approach an explanation of what "following Him" is all about- self-sacrifice, non-materialism, service, devotion to God, devotion to the Gospel, etc.

 

Yes donna, the sinners prayer has repentance - if they accept Christ as their savior, acknowledging their sin put Christ on the cross, and asking Christ to forgive them all of their sins they can and will be saved. If it is done in their heart on not simply a lip service to get someone off their front door.

Repentance that leads to salvation is a change of mind about who Christ is and who we are.
We turn from our old mindset that we are the center of the universe, and accept God's mastery over everything including ourselves, we accept his just decree that all who sin deserve death, that includes us, the sorrow for our sin that he shows us leads us to seek his forgiveness and mercy through the only thing that can save us, the shed blood of Christ. That is the repentance that leads to salvation.

There is another type of repentance, and that is turning from particular sins - the problem with Lordship advocates is, they read turning from sin into every time time they see the greek word for repetance, regardless of its context.

Lordship Advocates don't believe we will be perfect right after salvation, but they believe we will be almost-perfect as we grow in the Lord.

Consider these quotes:

Here are some quotes by some theologians, some Catholic, some Protestant Lordship Proponents

Chilling isn't it?

Even Lordship advocates realize that at the Begining Luther and Calvin still kept works but at the end of their lives they realized works must be completely divorced from assurance of salvation and one Lordship propopent had this to say about Luther and Calvin:

". . . for as sure as truth is in history, Luther and Calvin did fall into this error, which the Reformed churches, by the Westminster Confession, have since corrected"
Robert L. Dabney
Volume I: Theological and Evangelical, p. 215.


I love how God opened Luther's eyes to many errors he had at the end of his life when he wrote these words:

"Just as what is offered to us is neither the Law nor any of its works but Christ alone, so what is required of us is nothing but faith, which takes hold of Christ and believes that my sin and death are damned and abolished in the death of Christ (26:160)."
-Luther in his Commentary on Galatians

IFBReformer

 

OK, but this doesn't address my statement that believing on Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do. It is easier than breathing for me. It is second-nature to me. I can't do otherwise. That is why I can't accept the term "easy believism" as a pejorative because it's the only kind of believing that I personally am capable of.

I will say that along with that "easy-believing" is the intense desire to have the following Scripture realized in my life.

KJV 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

That is why I can say that I understand what folks mean by the pejorative "easy believism" but would rather call it by a more precise and accurate name: "phoney believism", "imitation believism" or "pretended believism".

There always seems to follow a gospel of works after the use of the phrase "easy-believism", in a pejorative way. That there is something more to do than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Now that we that we are saved we have to prove it by works, which to me can be a form of a works gospel.

Again, it seems to me that there is a confounding of Bible justification and sanctification.

In addition and in my opinion, "phoney believism" can have as its own end "phoney sanctification", some folks call it "churchianity" or busying one's self with church activity as a salve for the guilty conscience all the while knowing about Christ but not knowing Him.

My opinion of course.

HankD

 

I will probably have some that disagree with me, but IMHO "easy believism" is:

Salvation without repentance

Living without Lordship (Christ's Lordship)

Walking without seeking personal Holiness

In short, using Christ as "fire insurance"; Or using Him as a "spare tire" instead of the driver of the car.

Just my opinion.......

 

Genuine belief in anything produces a change of attitude and behavior. Genuine belief in the person and work of Christ produces genuine repentance. If repentance is lacking then so is genuine belief.

Easy believism basically peddles another Christ... or maybe a partial Christ. It sells the Christ who died so we could go to heaven but not the one who commanded repentance and that we pick up our cross and follow Him. It doesn't even approach an explanation of what "following Him" is all about- self-sacrifice, non-materialism, service, devotion to God, devotion to the Gospel, etc. </font>[/QUOTE]I would agree with this statement only when it is flipped, because I think you have it out of order:

Your statement:
"Genuine belief in the person and work of Christ produces genuine repentance."


My belief:
"Genuine repentance(that leads to salvation) produces genuine belief in the person and work of Christ Jesus."

After turning your statement around to the correct Biblical order, I would then agree with this statement you made:

"If repentance is lacking then so is genuine belief."

Lets tackle your problem with what it means to follow him.

I will list several passages from the Gospels and let you tell us looking at them together what you think - I have inserted in several passages what I believe you think in these cases, but please feel free to correct it, but within the context of the passages please.

Is this what you think these passages are saying?

"23Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me[get my salvation], he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me[do whatever I command]."
Luke 9:23


"And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple[get my salvation]."
Luke 14:27

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple[get my salvation]. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me[do whatever I command] cannot be my disciple[get my salvation].
28“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower[wants to be saved]. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost[of his getting salvation] to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it[believes on me but does not do all the things I require for his salvation], everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’

31“Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king[wants to be saved]. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand[see if he has the will to give up everything]? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple[cannot get the salvation I offer].
Luke 14:25-33

I look forward to your response.

IFBReformer

 

I'm not sure if you are requesting a response from me Reformer, but if you are, I've quit trying to figure out the order of events in my salvation because I had nothing to do with it anyway.

HankD

 

90 percent of the chruch today does not reproduce itself. They are certainly not obedient disciples.

But I tend to make the claim as Matthew 7:21-23 does.

Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

I believe the bulk of American Christians have been lied to about Jesus expects of His disciples. It sure isn't an eight week short Bible study being called discipleship. Discipleship is not like gnosticism climbing up a ladder getting to the top rung. It is not mental ascent. It is not intellectual knowledge only. It is obedience to Christ.

 

amen

 

Quoted by Straitandnarrow: But salvation is NOT easy. Read this passage from Mathew.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

I am not a Calvanist. I believe we have a choice of wether we follow Christ or not. That is how we become inexcusable. In my experience with people the narrow way isn't hard to find. Most simply do not want to follow Christ. They reject Him for the broad way.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is telling us to stick to our bibles, and get grounded in the faith. We are told we can know the truth and the truth will make us free.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

We will beable to recognize fellow Christians by their fruit. A truly unsaved person can fake it, but will not produce lasting fruit.

It is easy to get saved. Christ is the second Adam. Once again we have an opportunity to listen to God or not. A person must know he is lost before he can be saved. We are to come as we are. If that were not possible He would not tell us to.

In the 1-2-3 prayer it does cover the bases. If a person gets ahold of it they will be saved. One thing the soul winning crowd is not good at is following up. We leave starving babies all over the world.

 

Yes and no but mostly no.

Yes. Having free will we can ignore the leading of the Spirit and walk after the flesh and be "carnal" rather than walking by faith (at least for a season).

No. Since the Spirit of God indwells us we will always have that still small voice of the Spirit and Christ has promised to "discipline" His legitimate children.

So, if we view an untimlely death (KJV 1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep)
as a "disciplinary" action then ultimately - no.
Every child of God is subject to God's "discipline".

HankD

 

Ok .. defining easy believism is one thing. There are folks on both sides.... so the REAL issue.. is "how do you witness to someone?" I have posted this on another forum and the thread has not been answered. I think its time to put up or shut up. If you dont witness..then the issue dont pertain to you. If you do witness...tell us HOW you do it? Several have laid things out plain and clear on this post. For others, I think they are afraid because what they believe cannot be put into practice and written and explained on a reply without implying works for salvation.
I am with the few who have stated what they believe is the proper presentation of the gospel. Repentance is in the heart.. a person is not going to sit down and think of every sin and eliminate them one by one in a process. I dont think it is done that way. I think repentance is a CONDITION of the heart at the point of regeneration where the person says whatever sins i might have, I am turning from them (repenting)."

Tell me.. how do you folks witness to people???

 

Preach Jesus from the Scriptures:

KJV Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

That's how I do it, given the opportunity.

HankD

 

HankD.. please expound.

PREEEECCHHHH BROTHER!
come on.. tell us.. what you tell these people?

 

Why, is your name Torquemada?

Just what I said, I preach Jesus.

HankD

 

Easy believism contrasted with true salvation is perhaps best demonstrated by examining the explanation of the parable of the sower in Mark 4:14-20:

14. The sower soweth the word.
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17. And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19. And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

The above Scripture [4:14-19] demonstrate the fruits of easy believism. The final verse [4:20] in this explanation of the parable of the sower demonstrates the response of the elect to the effectual call after regeneration by the Holy Spirit [Ephesians 2:1-10].

20. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.