Your thoughts on these statements.

[SaggyWoman]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

 

[4His_glory]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

Some of these statements concern me because they appear to be rather man-focused instead of God-focused. Also the word "culture" can be rather nebulous at times.

That said here are my thoughts:

1. I disagree, Jesus was about glorifying the Father, that was His chief business. His Gospel transcends culture.

2. The church emerged because God raised it up and ordained it.

3. I think that a local church naturally will reflect the culture in which it is located. This is healthy as long as culture does not violate any clear biblical standards and norms. In fact a culturally insensitive church (such as a church plant in a non-american culture) that seeks to be "american" will ultimately hinder the cause of the gospel.

4. Those are not the only two options. A church that is "up-ward" focused (i.e. with the the glory of God being is driving motivation for all it does) will focus on the edification of the saints and the propagation of the gospel at the same time. To a degree a church aught to connect to culture as long as that does not overstep clear biblical mandates. I think it is better to say that a church should be sensitive to culture.

5. I have no idea what the author of the statement thinks the church should be so I can not comment.

6. The church is the vehicle to the end goal of God receiving all the glory due Him.

7. I think I answered that in statements 4 and 3.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Read Richard Niebuhr's classic Christ and Culture. Dated though it is, there is no more seminal analysis of what churches have done over the years to engage or disengage; and his discussion of the transformation of culture is the starting point for any serious theology on this matter.

 

[annsni]

Some of these statements concern me because they appear to be rather man-focused instead of God-focused. Also the word "culture" can be rather nebulous at times.

That said here are my thoughts:

1. I disagree, Jesus was about glorifying the Father, that was His chief business. His Gospel transcends culture.

2. The church emerged because God raised it up and ordained it.

3. I think that a local church naturally will reflect the culture in which it is located. This is healthy as long as culture does not violate any clear biblical standards and norms. In fact a culturally insensitive church (such as a church plant in a non-american culture) that seeks to be "american" will ultimately hinder the cause of the gospel.

4. Those are not the only two options. A church that is "up-ward" focused (i.e. with the the glory of God being is driving motivation for all it does) will focus on the edification of the saints and the propagation of the gospel at the same time. To a degree a church aught to connect to culture as long as that does not overstep clear biblical mandates. I think it is better to say that a church should be sensitive to culture.

5. I have no idea what the author of the statement thinks the church should be so I can not comment.

6. The church is the vehicle to the end goal of God receiving all the glory due Him.

7. I think I answered that in statements 4 and 3.

What he said. I totally agree with you. I hate this whole "culture" excuse that people make about the church. It's about God - not the culture. Yes, we need to understand those we are ministering to but without a God focus, we lose our way.

 

[EdSutton]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture (sic) through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

I "see" nothing particularly "wrong" with most of these statements, as printed, #3 excepted.

At the same time however, I definitely "sense" a great deal that is very "wrong" that is underlying this, even though it is actually unspoken, here. All of the other posters, so far, have already made some good points, I would add. I would want a good deal more information from the one who has made these statements, personally.

Ed

 

[preachinjesus]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

I agree

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

I don't know what this means. Honestly, I participate in a lot of conversations over this kind of material and need more info to understand this.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

I agree.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

I agree.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

I would change this and say the church is often close to drifting away from biblical roots. Yet in His sovereignty God continues to maintain us and keep the church on course...of in spite of the leadership.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

It is not the goal but it is assembly of those pressing towards the goal.

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

I'm sort of with Andy Crouch on this, I think the church should be creating culture. Culture is a slightly ambiguous term, but it is a significant force. By creating culture we, in the church, can better contextualize our approach to reach people. Of course this naturally involves being integrated into culture, which I have no problem with.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I agree with what 4His Glory said

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

Well, yes and no. Certainly he engaged the people around him, but he was also very much set apart. He was able to engage sinners without ever sinning, something we would do well to copy.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

NO, as 4His Glory said, the church emerged because God raised it up.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

I don't know what this means. A healthy church should be able to engage people from a variety of cultures with love and compassion but the transition from worldly to godly is not easy.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with culture through a lens that is healthy.

As 4His Glory said, the church should be upward focused. No reason we cannot have outreach and inward growth at the same time. We need both.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

Not God's Church! God's Church is exactly what he intended, the problem is we have lots of buildings and associations calling themselves churches that are not.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

If I have to pick I would say vehicle, but the church does not transport us or change us, God does this himself. The church is one tool he uses.

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

Not if it means the church becoming more like the world. Culture needs to become closer to church, not the other way around.

 

[JustChristian]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

Yes, Jesus did live in and engage his culture. He did this primarily through teaching and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God. This was His secondary objective in coming to earth with the primary one being His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection to provide salvation for all mankind.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

The Great Commission summarized Jesus' marching orders for the Church.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The early church grew rapidly through Christians' faith, commitment, and sharing the Word. They didn't do this by "circling the wagons" but through engagement with non-believers.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

We are told as Christians to be in the world but not of the world. Christians and the church should not mirror any culture they find themselves in but need to work in that culture to be obedient to the Great Commission.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

The church needs to support and empower its members to go out into the world and spread the good News.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

The church should speak out on moral issues but should never associate itself with political candidates or a specific political party. Patriotism and Christianity should not be mixed. Both are of course worthy objectives but they should not be considered to be dependent upon one another.

Most of today's church members assume that "soul winning" is the responsibility of the church staff or the Deacons. Every church member needs to understand that they are responsible for outreach as well.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

Individually worshiping God and establishing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the goal. The church is here to support individuals. The pastor won't be standing beside us when we face the final judgment. We have to face Jesus Christ alone.

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

The church should be more engaged with culture as was Jesus. He associated with the worst members of society (prostitutes, tax, collectors, etc.). The church should NEVER be integrated into culture. We must always be separate but engaged.
__________________

 

[Marcia]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

SaggyWoman, tell us where you got these! It sounds like Emergent-speak.

No. 2 is so wrong. The church was established by Jesus and had nothing to do with the culture it was in. It's for people "set apart" or "called out" from the culture. That's what the word "church" means.

What is meant by "transitioning" in and out of culture? No, the church should not look like the culture. We should engage the culture, but that's different than looking like it.

No. 1 is wrong. Jesus was about coming to announce the Kingdom of God is at hand, and to die for sins, so that man could have forgiveness and be redeemed.

No. 4 is a false dichotomy. The Emergents are experts with this and use them all the time. For this and other reasons, I think this is coming from an Emergent person, church, or Emergent-friendly person. If it's not, I bet the person who said this is being influenced by them.

No. 7: The church should not be integrated into the culture, but should understand the culture and be bringing the gospel to the culture.

 

[Revmitchell]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

It is Utilitarian Garbage

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... I hate this whole "culture" excuse that people make about the church. It's about God - not the culture. Yes, we need to understand those we are ministering to but without a God focus, we lose our way.

Well done.

SaggyWoman, tell us where you got these! It sounds like Emergent-speak.

No. 2 is so wrong. The church was established by Jesus and had nothing to do with the culture it was in. It's for people "set apart" or "called out" from the culture. That's what the word "church" means.

What is meant by "transitioning" in and out of culture? No, the church should not look like the culture. We should engage the culture, but that's different than looking like it.

No. 1 is wrong. Jesus was about coming to announce the Kingdom of God is at hand, and to die for sins, so that man could have forgiveness and be redeemed.

No. 4 is a false dichotomy. The Emergents are experts with this and use them all the time. For this and other reasons, I think this is coming from an Emergent person, church, or Emergent-friendly person. If it's not, I bet the person who said this is being influenced by them.

No. 7: The church should not be integrated into the culture, but should understand the culture and be bringing the gospel to the culture.

BINGO !!

I would add:

No. 3 is a false premise. A healthy church doesn't react to the culture at all. It obeys its Lord.

No. 5 is wrong. The 'true' church (ekklesia) is exactly what God intended it to be. The 'professed' church (the visible church the world sees) consists of true church members (wheat) and professed believers who are not really Believers (tares). It is what God knew it would become, and in the sense of His sovereignty, what He intended it to be.

No 6. is another false premise. God doesn't set goals that may or may not be met.

:saint:

 

[Revmitchell]

The word culture, which is often used when the appropriate word is sub-culture, is many times ans excuse to be comfortable, feed the flesh, conform to this world. And God becomes a means to the end which is the happiness of man.

 

[Marcia]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

SaggyWoman, if you did not make these up yourself, aren't you obligated to say where these come from? You know, give the source??

 

[daveme7]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

In a sense-yes. To the Jew first then to the Greek in the context of salvation. How emergents define and use this is not what Christ did as he did not just engage the community but preached against it, crucified, and risen as rejected by community(less then 1% folowed Christ). Jonah, Moses, Joseph, and an infinite amount of bible characters progressed into con fronting culture. This is not the same as emergent understanding as basically it becomes a no brainer in Romans 10 and the great commission commanding us to preach the gospel so sinners will be saved. I am stating this for one reason-just because emergent perverts the gospel does not mean we should stay away from certain ideas such as community(church is a community)

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

Again-yes but not in the way emergent describes it as basically Christ died for the biggest community-basically the world and all those people in it. Being crucified by Romans I do not think many emergent philosohers intewnding to see it this way. Essiantially engaging culture-Christ condemned it.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

Sometimes. In the Philippines, some churches would welcome Americans-in other places you will be murdered and more then likely hidden by a Baptist church causing Saints to be in danger when the easiest thing to do is not to go as this would be dumb. Somehow-white American Christians would not be welcomed by Abu Syaff

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

This is really bad as judgemental. Of course many churches are outw2ard focused emergent thought would be condemning i.e. mission work, preaching the gospel of Christ-engaging the community with the gospel though I am sure somehow emergent postmodernism will try to show this is inward focused.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be. This question needs more clarification

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal? Not sure what is being asked.

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

Be inthe world but not of it-preaching the gospel of Christ is the only biblical way to be engaged in cultutre.

 

[annsni]

Be inthe world but not of it-preaching the gospel of Christ is the only biblical way to be engaged in cultutre.

Yet as Jesus showed us, the approach can change when the message does not.

 

[Revmitchell]

1. Jesus was about living in and engaging his surrounding culture.

2. The church emerged from Jesus engaging culture and humanity.

3. A healthy church can transition in and out of culture with ease.

4. Churches tend to either be inward focused (inreach) or outward focused (outreach). The church needs to connect with cutlture through a lens that is healthy.

5. The church is something that God never intended it to be.

6. Is the church the end goal or the vehicle to the end goal?

7. Should the church be more integrated into culture, and if so, how?

Where in scripture does it say He engaged culture?