Your View On Women As Pastors

[gb93433]

Regardless of one's view of these verses, the creeping in of gnosticism was a HUGE issue for the early church.

Don't you think that very much parallels the increase in calvinism today?

 

[Marcia]

The Bible also says to cut off your arm, pluck out your eye - yet for some reason there are not nearly as many one armed one eyed folks occupying our churches as you think there should be. It is not the Bible that is chauvinistic, it is the folks using the Bible that are. God is the ultimate "womens-libber", don't put on him your narrow fundamentalist views of the role of women.

Clearly, "cut off your arm, etc" is not literal. However, this is:

11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

 

[Jerome]

Did someone say literal?
Instructing men at church isn't teaching if you call it a "lecture".:laugh:

 

[Tom Bryant]

Don't you think that very much parallels the increase in calvinism today?

I am not a calvinist, but that's not true in any sense of the word. To equate the growth of a heresy (gnosticism) with the growth of Calvinism which, although I disagree, has backing from the Scriptures.

JohnV is correct that gnosticism was a huge problem. But I don't agree with him that Paul's teaching about the authority of husbands had anything to do with gnosticism.

 

[Johnv]

JohnV is correct that gnosticism was a huge problem. But I don't agree with him that Paul's teaching about the authority of husbands had anything to do with gnosticism.

Which is where I think everyone should agree to having differing viewpoints on the topic, respect those viewpoints, and leave the topic where it is. If your church does not permit women as pastors, or in any specific leadership role, that church's rule on the subject should be respected and adhered to, in accordance with the Baptist Distinctives of local autonomy and individual liberty.

 

[annsni]

I do not see a women's ministry as being apart from the church but a pert of the church.

I agree totally but a women's ministry doesn't mean that they're overtaking the church. It means that there is a ministry for the women. Our church has a ministry to the disabled. If that was our only ministry aside from the Sunday service, it wouldn't mean that the disabled are running our church. It would just mean that they're meeting.

If the men are not leading the church and their homes then I see a problem. I believe the men should be the primary leaders. If they are not then no amount of any other ministry will make up for that. If the men lead the church then balance is possible. Men who lead, train and attract other men. If male visitors find weak male leadership then they will either leave of stay and make a difference.

I totally agree with all of this but denying another ministry doesn't fix the issue, IMO.

If you have string female leadership and discipleship but poor male leadership and discipleship then you have a weak church and weak leadership in the home. I do not see where weak male leadership encourages submissiveness in women.

I agree that if you have strong female leadership then you have a weak church but I think having strong female discipleship - BIBLICAL discipleship, it can lead to a very strong church because you have women who know their Biblical role and spend much time on their knees for the church, the leadership and their own husbands.

Too many churches accept the idea of weak men and strong women instead of training the men to be strong leaders. I take the position that strong male leadership also encourages strong female leadership and makes for a bold strong church working in unity and harmony instead of it being lopsided and a church full of strong females and weak males.

Fully agree and I see this in my church. We have strong men AND strong women. But I know it wasn't always the case yet they didn't step on the women to try to bring up the men. The women were strong enough on their own to bend their knee to bring the men up.

 

[annsni]

I am not a calvinist, but that's not true in any sense of the word. To equate the growth of a heresy (gnosticism) with the growth of Calvinism which, although I disagree, has backing from the Scriptures.

JohnV is correct that gnosticism was a huge problem. But I don't agree with him that Paul's teaching about the authority of husbands had anything to do with gnosticism.

Agreed on both points - although I do agree with the doctrine of grace.

 

[Jerome]

More blasts from the past:

"An Englishwoman's Visit to America," Hartford Courant, July 18, 1890, p. 2:

It is with profound delight I hasten to inform you of my safe return home, and lay a modest outline of my visit to America...I have preached...sermons, including the Lenten addresses delivered in the Episcopal churches of Baltimore, where in Christ's Church I stood in front of the communion table, and St. Peter's and Grace churches by but not in the pulpits. In Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Congregational and Unitarian churches I occupied the pulpit.

"Eloquent Women," Washington Post, Feb. 18, 1890, p. 5:

Mrs. Ormiston Chant, who is here under the auspices of the World's W.C.T.U., has recently spoken in Mr. Spurgeon's church in London with great acceptability.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

More blasts from the past:

"An Englishwoman's Visit to America," Hartford Courant, July 18, 1890, p. 2:


"Eloquent Women," Washington Post, Feb. 18, 1890, p. 5:

so, this shows...that possibly they were wrong in 1890 too.

 

[Johnv]

so, this shows...that possibly they were wrong in 1890 too.

Somewhat off topic, every church since day 1 has been wrong about something or another. Every church is probably wrong about at least one thing. If a person thinks they found a church that's right on everything, I guarantee they're spoil it by joining that church. The question is whether differing on such things is an issue. If the issues are core scriptural doctrines, then yes, there must be unity. Where they are not core scriptural issues, there must be liberty. These issues discussed here are not core scriptural issues. Hence, they're matters of liberty.

 

[Jerome]

"Female Evangelists: What Dr. E. W. Warren Says On the Interesting Subject," Atlanta Constitution, June 4, 1891, p. 2:

Each church is a sovereign body, possessing all the rights of self-government according to the law of Christ, and from its decisions there is no appeal—inasmuch as no ecclesiastical power is vested by the head of the church anywhere else. Any church can accept or reject a female evangelist without the slightest apprehension of being arraigned by any association or convention of our denomination.

 

[thegospelgeek]

"In Christ there is no male nor female."

That's why I ( a male) am married to a dude.

 

[David Michael Harris]

All my first school teachers were Christian ladies and I respect them. Godly women. I don't have a problem with them being leaders if there are no blokes around who are stronger.

Paul talks about women not teaching in Church. ??

I think if I was in leadership I would think about this more, but for now a godly person is a godly person.

 

[David Michael Harris]

That's why I ( a male) am married to a dude.

Excuse me! ( said in a sense, 'what did you just say' )

 

[Jerome]

From Down Under:

The Sword and the Trowel, July 1882, "A Visit to Mr. Thomas Spurgeon":

The night before I left Christchurch to go north I saw a large number of applicants for membership. many of whom had been brought to decision through the evangelistic labours of Mrs. Hampson.

The Sword and the Trowel, October 1882, "Notes":

June 10th.—On Sunday we had a larger congregation than ever at the Choral Hall. Mr. Spurgeon preached from 'My Lord and my God,' — the exclamation of Thomas when he beheld his Saviour. The lesson was,—The sin of unbelief, the mischief it wrought, and the ruin that goes with it. In the morning, 'By the grace of God I am what I am',—two good, stirring sermons. Mrs. Hampson was with us in the evening, and at the communion service offered a beautiful prayer, and thanksgiving for the poured-out blood.

New Zealand Observer, Sept. 10, 1881:

—Mrs Hampson was present at Wellesley-street Church last Sunday night, which place was again crammed with people anxious to hear the son of the "prince of modern preachers."

Gisborne (N.Z.) Herald, November 2, 1883:

The lady evangelist, Mrs. Hampson, who created a great sensation in New Zealand by her preaching and holding revival meetings in all the principal centres. . . .In Auckland she is destined to play an important part in the connection with the opening of the new Baptist Tabernacle.

 

[Jerome]

Girl Evangelist at Capitol Hill Baptist Church!

Washington Post, July 9, 1926, p. 10:
In a short, spirited sermon, in which she denounced the devil as "a liar and the father of lies," 10-year-old Betty Weakland, of Los Angeles, Calif., said to be the youngest preacher in the world, conducted her first services in Washington last night at the Metropolitan Baptist church, Sixth and A streets northeast.

Photo of Betty Weakland

 

[donnA]

Excuse me! ( said in a sense, 'what did you just say' )

I could be wrong, but I think he's being sarcastic, if God defines marriage between a man and a woman then God infact recognizes people as men and women, not all as one, but different sexes, which would be why He gave instructions to men and then He gave instructions for women.

 

[Marcia]

Girl Evangelist at Capitol Hill Baptist Church!

Washington Post, July 9, 1926, p. 10:
In a short, spirited sermon, in which she denounced the devil as "a liar and the father of lies," 10-year-old Betty Weakland, of Los Angeles, Calif., said to be the youngest preacher in the world, conducted her first services in Washington last night at the Metropolitan Baptist church, Sixth and A streets northeast.

Photo of Betty Weakland

A woman evangelist is not the same as a woman pastor. I think the Bible is very clear on women not being in the position of pastor.

 

[Revmitchell]

No such thing as a woman pastor

 

[fbcodr]

No....you're just wrong! :tongue3:

AMEN!!!:laugh::thumbsup::jesus: